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  #11  
Old 12-03-2005, 12:26 AM
suited_ace suited_ace is offline
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Default Re: Following your gut

[ QUOTE ]
You need to push or check initially on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like an interesting line... Care to elaborate a little bit more?
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  #12  
Old 12-03-2005, 12:40 AM
tewall tewall is offline
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Default Re: Following your gut

What I would be thinking is you're still in pretty good shape, and have a good chance of getting your money in when you have a better edge than what you'd be getting here.
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  #13  
Old 12-03-2005, 03:45 AM
pergesu pergesu is offline
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Default Re: Following your gut

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need to push or check initially on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like an interesting line... Care to elaborate a little bit more?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for lastchance, but here's my take on it.

Pushing forces your opponent to make the decision, and doesn't allow him to make a c/r that puts you in an uncomfortable position. You put max pressure on him and he can't outplay you.

If you check, I think you have to push the turn as long as he doesn't bet into you. It's the same reasoning as above, the difference being that I think you have a higher success rate of getting him to fold if he does in fact have a flush draw.

So many players are willing to call their stack off on a flush draw with two cards to come, but way less willing to do so with one card to come. You definitely don't want to be called if you shove the flop. By checking, you increase your chances of pushing him off his hand if he doesn't turn a pair. Yeah you're giving him a free card to catch one of his outs...but if he was going to call his stack on the flop anyway, does it hurt you at all? Nope, and in fact it's a lot better not to risk your stack. I don't think you have to worry about getting called on the turn, because as I said most players don't call huge bets on flush draws with only one card to come, and he would almost certainly bet a pair + a flush draw.

If it's the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] instead of the 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the flop, I'd just shove the flop and hope for a call. But since you're not very far ahead of him (if at all) then you want to minimize your risk and maximize your chances of pushing him off his weak hand.
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  #14  
Old 12-04-2005, 05:38 AM
pergesu pergesu is offline
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Default Re: Following your gut

I'm pretty pissed that nobody has responded to this.
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  #15  
Old 12-04-2005, 05:43 AM
rbear rbear is offline
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Default Re: Following your gut

I agree completely.

Sure that's not what you're looking for, but I agree w/ analysis, and need to be putting opponents in spots I hate to be in.
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  #16  
Old 12-04-2005, 06:20 AM
Newt_Buggs Newt_Buggs is offline
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Default Re: Following your gut

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need to push or check initially on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like an interesting line... Care to elaborate a little bit more?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that last chance is thinking that if you c-bet here like you did then you have to make a marginal call if he pushes, like the villain did. Pushing or checking prevents you from getting trapped in this type of spot. I could write an entire page on this hand, and why getting trapped into making this marginal call isn't necessarily bad, but i'm going to bed instead.
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  #17  
Old 12-04-2005, 11:53 AM
Kristian Kristian is offline
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Default Re: Following your gut

I think the possible flush draw is only a side note to this hand, since villain will only be holding 2 clubs about 5% of the time. Is your line the same if the flop is rainbow? Does it favor check or push more?

I am not saying your line is wrong, but I have a couple of issues with it:
First of all, I have a hard time giving a free card by checking here. Next, the push is just begging to be called by almost any hand, and some of those might fold to a more 'traditional' bet. Last, it's not like hero can't use the 410 he has left if he choses to fold to the check-raise, that's almost the value of half a tournament.

Hope to hear more thoughts and elaborations.
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