New Israeli/Palestinian peace plan

[MMMMMM]

Don't their words support the idea that they were indeed preparing to launch a massive attack on Israel, and that therefore Israel acted pre-emptively in self-defense?

[Chris Alger]

For the reasons I already stated, obviously not.

[MMMMMM]

Just prior to the war, and during the Arab build-up of forces, both the leaders of Egypt and Syria said that their objective was the annihilation of Israel--just how can that possibly be construed as to not signify intent?

"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel"--Gamel Abdel Nasser, May 27, 1967

"Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map"--President Aref of Iraq, May 31, 1967

These words go beyond mere brinksmanship, don't they?

[Cyrus]

"I just went to eBay and looked for Iron Wall and White Out but found neither."

Their owners don't want to part with 'em. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

"I like to order cheap on eBay or from Dover whenever possible."

Keep looking. If necessary, choose Wall over White; 'tis not the season to be jolly.

"I'm looking forward to seeing how you .... reconcile the quotes of Nasser and Aref (just prior to the 1967 war) with your positions."

See IW, pp. 236-241 [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

[Chris Alger]

If you can't respond to the facts in the argument, why waste time responding? For the umpteenth time, just because Abdel Gamal Nasser said it doesn't necessarily make it so. Duh.

And how is the "President" of Iraq the "leader" of Syria?

[MMMMMM]

So you are claiming that Nasser and Aref's words were just for show?

If they were (which I find ridiculously hard to believe, even in the context of your argument), then let's see if Kim Jong-il makes a similar idiotic mistake soon. He's getting pretty close to it.

I meant Iraq, not Syria. Iraq was moving forces towards the border too.

[Cyrus]

The U.S. will do nothing about North Korea, beyond the application of diplomatic pressure.

"Let's see if Kim Jong-il makes a similar idiotic mistake soon [and makes a provocative public proclamation]. He's getting pretty close to it."

North Korea has no territorial issue to contest with the South, as is the case with Kashmir that riles India & Pakistan. But the inflammatory talk is there! I haven't made a web search but I would speculate that Kim has made and continues to make threatening and disparaging statements about the United States. I'm sure that those numerous military or civilian parades are good occasions for such speeches. At the very least Pyong Yang Radio must be a Moscow Radio 1950s Oldies But Goodies Extravaganza.

But, if it's true that the North Koreans are mouthing off, now the U.S. should go to war on the basis of provocative or inflammatory statements??! Oh, boy.

"So you are claiming that Nasser and Aref's words were just for show?"

The reality in the Arab camp before (and especially after) the 6-Day War was very different, almost the opposite of what public postures were indicating. Practically every party was lying; briefly stated, after the war, Israel declared it wanted peace and the Arabs revenge; in reality, they both wanted the opposite of what they said they wanted. The political faction in Israel that wanted to transform the military gains into political accomodation with the Arabs was shoved aside; the Arab governments started sending earnest but very secret feelers for peace and a settlement of the Palestinian issue. The diplomatic archives demonstrate as much. (Keep searching eBay.)

"I meant Iraq, not Syria. Iraq was moving forces towards the border too."

What border? Iraq never had no borders with Israel. What are you talking about?

[MMMMMM]

North Korea's words have been inflammatory and threatening, but not as clearly as those of Nasser and Aref. North Korea's threatening words have largely been contingent, 'if' type statements, while Nasser and Aref said that their aim was the complete destruction of Israel.

However North Korea recently said they would begin testing and/or selling nukes. Since the DPRK is a large supplier of weapons to some of the most unstable regimes in the world, this prompted Powell to respond when asked if the USA would permit this, "Absolutely not."

Yes, I think war can conceivably be justified and prudent in response to very serious threats, especially if actions are taking place which seem to back up those threats.

By the way, if you are in a bar and some drunken goon says he is going to punch you and means it, and all "diplomatic options" have already been exhausted and there is no way out, wouldn't you try to take him out first while he's still talking about it?

We simply cannot allow North Korea to keep building nukes and/or selling them to unstable regimes. Of course we'll try diplomatic options extensively, but if the DPRK refuses to alter from its present course, I believe we will go to war with them. Fools never learn from the experiences of others; hopefully Kim is not truly a fool.

Re: Iraq and "border": OK, not the border. Same essential point though.

[B-Man]

The reality in the Arab camp before (and especially after) the 6-Day War was very different, almost the opposite of what public postures were indicating. Practically every party was lying; briefly stated, after the war, Israel declared it wanted peace and the Arabs revenge; in reality, they both wanted the opposite of what they said they wanted.

Amazing that you can write this crap. Have you actually brainwashed yourself into believing the anti-Israel lies you and Alger constantly spew?

I suppose the Arabs wanted peace in 1948, too, when every country in the region simultaneously declared war on, and attacked, Israel upon it formation. And in 1972, when the Arabs sneak-attacked Israel on the holiest day of the year for Jews (the double standard is outrageous--if Israel ever started a war during Ramadan, the reaction would be overwhelming. But the Arabs specifically choose to attack on the holiest day of the year for Jews... and they "want peace"!).

The fact is, the Arabs never wanted peace with Israel until Camp David/1978. Even then, it was only Egypt, and the peace between Israel and Egypt has been a cold one (though still preferable to war), though it has endured. All Israel ever wanted was to live in peace with its neighbors. But if they are going to be hostile, they are going to pay the price.

[Parmenides]

The Alger brothers:Irish Hand and Alger, are very anti-Jewish. Alger has posted flat racist slurs in sick attempts at comedy. Irish Hand has supported suicide bombing and stupidly believes that he can call W.Bush a Nazi and remain in the Navy. Cyrus is somehow related to them. They use this forum to keep in touch and spout propaganda.

Some of their arguments, however, have merit. Others are clearly garbage.