It aint easy being a pimp but someone's gotta do it (LCish)

[4_2_it]

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This is definitely worth exploring, because I do play alot of hands from the SB. Mind you there is a big difference between 65o (which I will play) 35s (which I will play) and K7o (which I won't).

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I generally will not play anything out of the blinds that I would not play UTG. In fact, if I am playing from the blinds, I am raising 50% or more of the time to get it HU where being OOP is not as big an issue.

To win with hands like 35s and 65o you need a perfect flop. You also need someone to make a second best hand to pay you off. You are not getting AK, AQ et al to give you much action on 347 flops.

The problem is how do you play a flop like 623 where you have TPNK? Check/call? Bet (do you call a raise)? What if the flop is A65 and UTG raises you all-in? Your VPiP from the sb should be close or slightly higher than your overall VPiP. Being OOP is a huge detriment without a premium holding.

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Its a huge detriment, but preflop you have great position and its half price to play? Why would you ever fold an excellent drawing hand here, like 109s or J10s which you clearly would not limp with UTG?

That is -EV.

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You are priced in to see the flop, but can you fold if you hit top pair without a straight or flush draw? If so, then I see no problem with calling those.

The problem is that most of us will bet or call down in TPNK situations. I think you lose more in these marginal situations than you win when you hit the jackpot.

There is a huge difference between UTG and SB, and that is you are close to closing the action preflop. You wouldn't limp many hands utg because of risk of being raised. I agree, of course, that hands like 65 and 35 make much much better hands to complete with than something like K7.

[4_2_it]

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There is a huge difference between UTG and SB, and that is you are close to closing the action preflop. You wouldn't limp many hands utg because of risk of being raised. I agree, of course, that hands like 65 and 35 make much much better hands to complete with than something like K7.

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Your statement is correct assuming that someone who completes with 35 is capable of optimal flop play. I think many of us (myself included) make our biggest mistakes post-flop.

Folding too much in the small blind is a much smaller leak than playing poorly post-flop after completing.

I will fold 35s in the sb all day because there is only one flop (A24) that I am sure to always be ahead and get some action.

[trumpman84]

SB is much different from UTG in that you have almost no risk of being raised after you put money in while from UTG, you are probably likely to be raised.

This is how I view the small blind...I compare it to playing a 16 vs a dealer 7 in blackjack. You know you are a favorite to lose the hand, but if you surrender, you lose half your bet so it's actually less -EV to try to play the hand.

Or if you have 88 vs a dealer ten, the correct play is to split and put MORE money into the pot, because the -EV for each bet with an 8 up against a 10 is less than the -EV for each bet with a 16 up against a 10.

Anyway, I don't know how well you can compare blackjack and poker, but I know the SB is -EV no matter how you play, but I think by defending it with a wider range of hands, it is less -EV than it is just by surrendering it. That said, I won't complete with anything, but my SB completing range is much bigger than my UTG range by far.

[Isura]

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Of course players lose money from the small blind. When referring to poker tracker you look not at how much you win with a hand but how little you lose. If you are losing less than the small blind it is good to play the hand.

Why play from the small blind with less than premium hands? Implied odds.

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So you will play K7o from the small blind but fold it UTG? You have always 'implied odds' to play any two against one deep stacked caller, but why would you? You are really missing the point here.

Maybe someone else can explain this better, because I think playing too many hands from the blinds is a leak most of us have. I think AJ or Beavens started a thread a couple of days ago that had a good discussion. I suck at search, but I will try to find it.

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I'm curious to know what hands you limp from the SB. With 1 limper? 2 or more limpers?
I am trying to tighten up, but I'm not sure what hands to muck. Do you play stuff like A2-A9o with 1 limper? I still call with 54s+,64s+, 54o+, A2s-A9s+, Kxs+ (not sure if this is bad), any two broadways. I'll play suited and connected stuff with lots of limpers and much with <= 2 limpers. I think you need to semibluff a lot on the flop in 3-handed pots to make stuff like 64s profitable.

[4_2_it]

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I'm curious to know what hands you limp from the SB. With 1 limper? 2 or more limpers?
I am trying to tighten up, but I'm not sure what hands to muck. Do you play stuff like A2-A9o with 1 limper? I still call with 54s+,64s+, 54o+, A2s-A9s+, Kxs+ (not sure if this is bad), any two broadways. I'll play suited and connected stuff with lots of limpers and much with <= 2 limpers. I think you need to semibluff a lot on the flop in 3-handed pots to make stuff like 64s profitable.

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If pot is raised I'm calling with a pp or raising a premium holding.
1 limper - see above
2 limpers and bb is passive - see above, SCs to 67, and AQs to A8s.
3 or more limpers - same as previous. Throw in A7s-A2 and one gaps to J9s. I hate Kxs because you make too many second best hands with it.

The hardest part is playing the hand OOP. You have to be able to lead any decent flop and fold to aggression. The biggest problem I have is playing T9s and you get a flop of 963r lead out and get raised by the 45/6 villain. You know has probably has TP and trash, but does his trash beat your trash?

My question is how much value are you giving up if folded all but the top 10 starting hands in sb? I'm guessing it is minimal. As you know, the higher up go, position becomes more important. I just don't wan to get into the habit of being a loose caller in the sb, because we have all experienced the situation where a half-bet costs us our stack.

Now if the button is trying to steal too often I will play back with a wider range. If it is limped to me, I am apt to raise any two to steal the bb. The normal situation of two limpers and me holding 34s will see me fold every time. Check your PT database and see how much you have won playing SCs out of the SB. I would interested to see if somebody has more than a couple of SCs that are reasonably profitable.

[Isura]

So you are folding AQ-ATs in the SB with 1 limper? I dunno, but I think I like your strategy better than mine. I play stuff like Q8s and 97o. Probably a bad habit from limit poker. BTW, what is your SB VP %?

I would be interested in seeing someone with a good sample's pokertracker positional winrate stats. I am currently winning from every position except the blinds.

[4_2_it]

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So you are folding AQ-ATs in the SB with 1 limper? I dunno, but I think I like your strategy better than mine. I play stuff like Q8s and 97o. Probably a bad habit from limit poker. BTW, what is your SB VP %?

I would be interested in seeing someone with a good sample's pokertracker positional winrate stats. I am currently winning from every position except the blinds.

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Yea, I would call with AQ-ATs as well. That was an oversight.

I don't have PT at work, but here is my latest recollection. I have about 75k hands in my database (30k before I started to get a clue) and my overall VPiP in the sb is 10-15% higher than my VPiP of 24%. When I first looked at it a month or two ago it was around 50%.

Since I started focusing on this over the last 30 days or so it is down to something close to 30% which I still think may be high, but I don't have enough data to say I am comfortable making a conclusion.

I know I may be tighter than I need to be, but I just don't see where I am giving up a lot of value by folding hands that will get me in tough spots. (AA gets me in enough tough spots, so if I can avoid getting in one with 56s OOP, then all the better.)

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There is a huge difference between UTG and SB, and that is you are close to closing the action preflop. You wouldn't limp many hands utg because of risk of being raised. I agree, of course, that hands like 65 and 35 make much much better hands to complete with than something like K7.

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Your statement is correct assuming that someone who completes with 35 is capable of optimal flop play. I think many of us (myself included) make our biggest mistakes post-flop.

Folding too much in the small blind is a much smaller leak than playing poorly post-flop after completing.

I will fold 35s in the sb all day because there is only one flop (A24) that I am sure to always be ahead and get some action.

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Here are my thoughts, sir. I will never pass up on possible +EV situations because I don't trust my postflop skills enough. If you think that you are making mistakes with certain hands, you should address them on an individual basis, when the problem hands arise. I know for a fact that if you plan on playing higher stakes short handed and/or deep stacked, you will have to get comfortable with playing deceptive hands like small suited connectors and gappers, often OOP as well.

I agree with you that many people at this level WILL make mistakes with the given hands, and tough decisions will come up, but thats poker. A good player takes advantage of those spots by making the right play, where a weaker player would have made that mistake. Instead of avoiding the situations, they should work on their post-flop play, post the hand they had trouble with, and get better at handling said situation.

As far as flops with small suited connectors and gappers, I am happy to see: two pair, trips, quads, boat, straight, flush, pair + flush draw, straight + flush draw, and often weaker draws that I get to hit cheap such as OESD, and flush. I play these hands for far more than for flopped nut straight value. And I WILL get action from people when I have them killed often enough to warrant completing and seeing a flop.

My bottom line: Waiting for and only playing premium hands from these positions may work at these stakes, and may save you some difficult decisions postflop, but I feel that you are missing many +EV spots by doing this, and also missing the knowledge you could be gaining ,as far as postflop play and decision-making, while its still cheap.

Villian had A8