I'm not sure what this means

[davidross]

As I read other people giving their results in tournaments I have compared them with mine. I don't keep exact stats, so this is just an approximation, but I make the money far less often than most of the people here say they do. I'm guessing I cash around 5% of the time, and since they pay around 10%, I would think my number should be higher.

However, when I make the money, I seem to do very well. I rarely squeak into the money then go out, I think I make the final table at least 1/3 of the time I make the money, and since I usually play events with hundreds of entries, there are usually 8 or 9 tables making the money.

Obviously since I rarely squeak into the money, I usually have a playable amount of chips when I get there, this is probably why I have a better chance of going deep in the tournament.

What concerns me is that maybe I'm missing opportunities by not cashing as often as I could. Since I seem to do well after cashing, should I be adjusting my play to try and cash more often? Or is the reason I'm doing well after cashing simply because I won't let my stack get down to the critical level before the bubble?

[Ghazban]

I'd say that, if your ROI is high, a low ITM percentage shouldn't bother you unduly. If the psychological effect of not making the money more often bothers you, you could tighten up more around bubble time and have more low payout finishes. Basically, if you're showing a profit, what's the problem? Personally, I have the opposite problem in that I play too tightly and often make the money but rarely make the big money. I think I'd much rather be in your position as, any time you're investing a lot of time in a tournament, you're getting a reasonable payout while I'm grinding away a lot of time just to get my entry refunded.

[durron597]

I agree with Ghazban. This issue comes up a lot on the One Table Tournaments forum; people getting caught up in ITM% when ROI% means so much more. If you are playing very profitably, it doesn't matter how often you cash.

This is what people are saying when they say "don't worry about squeaking into the money if you want to make the final table"... you seem to understand that very well already, don't change [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

That being said, you could try playing slightly tighter on the bubble, but only slightly.

[jdbessix]

I agree with the ROI statement/thought process. I would much rather go into the money with a good size stack and have the opportunity to go deep. Playing for four sometimes five hours to make maybe $100.00 seems like a waste to me.
With your talent in ring games, it would just make more sense to go into the tournament thinking deep as opposed to "just making the money". In the time it takes to squeek in, you can probably make 10 times that amount in ring games.

[Raiser]

David,

I'm glad you posted this because I was wondering about it myself. Like you I don't cash too often. Unfortunately for me I haven't made a final table yet in my brief life as a MTTer. It's good to see that a respected tourney player has a ITM rate similar to mine. Now I just need to use my chips better when I reach the money.

[mrbaseball]

I think I'm kinda the same way. I don't make the money as often as I would like but when I do it's usally with a real playable stack getting me into final table contention. I often play boldly (maybe too boldly?) in the pre-bubble and bubble stages looking to pick on the squeakers. It usually makes me miss the money or come into it healthy.

[Tosh]

The thing to remember is that noone here has a relevant sample of tournaments to judge a win rate, ROI or ITM.

[eMarkM]

Probably means nothing at this point...

I'm also on the "concentrate on ROI" bandwaggon. But then, you probably haven't played enough to know what that number truly is. You had that one big 15K cash that's gonna skew the results. Your ROI is not going to be reliable for quite some time.

My ROI still vacillates quite a bit and I have over 450 MTTs under my belt. If I were to get a top 3 in one of those monster Party "Super" tourneys, my ROI would make a huge jump. It's still not really all that reliable and I know you probably have a heck of a lot fewer than 450 tourneys (though you're catching up [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). ROI is more straight forward concept for SNGs, but it gets tricky with MTTs, since the variance is so large it really takes a long time to get to the long run.

That being the case, I've tried to just concentrate on the EV of individual plays throughout a tourney. I try to go over the hand histories of the tourneys I play to see where I went wrong and what I did right. When playing Party tourneys, I like using that Party hand replayer. I look at and keep stats, but I try not to get too hung up on them. At least as long as ROI is positive [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

As to your style, I should probably do more of that. I tend more toward a lot of small money finishes (and bubbles), just trying to survive and eeking it out and hoping to get lucky in the late stages, vs the build or bust style of getting a monster stack early and driving it towards a big money finish or busting out on an early race. It would cut down on hours played, too, if I did that more. But again, it's probably still too soon to say with you if that's how you'll really play them in the long haul. How many MTTs have you played?

[fnord_too]

Just a notion...

I also think ROI is a good measure, but there may be a better one: Hourly Rate. If you don't sneak into the money often, you are probably increasing your hourly rate considerably, since your results will tend towards the two extremes: Much bigger payday for slightly longer hours or no payday for fewer hours.

I have been trying on some style changes lately, and I am not sure where I will end up, but I definitely think it is better to gamble more in the middle stages with a shorter stack than to try to eke into the money. It just isn't worth it to play for a tiny return.

The main stats I consider are (surprise) an ROI equivalent, number of final tables, and how often I finish in the top three when I make the final table. I think the last is incredibly important, since final table play has such a huge impact on how much you make.

As for missing opportunities by not cashing, try this: calculate your cash % and average cash amount (in terms of entry cost). Make some assumptions about how changing your playing style will impact these two values and see what the numbers say. If they say change your style, try it a while and see if reality mirrors your model. My very strong suspicion is that you are probably way ahead with the way you are playing.

Another posible area to look at:
Just how much is a "playable" amount of chips. (I think 3XBB is playable, but that is because I have rallied several times from very short stacks. Last night for instance I was 26th out of 26 with 3 or 4BB and wound up finishing 2nd due to getting greedy and slow playing when I was ahead in chips HU, but I digress...)

If you find you are selling yourself short on what you can successfully play with, you may be gambling a little too much too soon. Overall though, it sounds like your style is working well for you.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]

Just how much is a "playable" amount of chips. (I think 3XBB is playable

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just thinking about how stupid this sounded, so let me clarify:

If I have 3 or 4 BB, I certainly have only have 3 plays, all in, fold, check the BB if the pot is unraised. However, late in a tourney, I may go a round and through my blinds without playing a hand because I know when the blinds are that high if I double or tripple up I am not in bad shape. Though I hate paying off half my stack in blinds, I would probably fold the BB with a hand like 25 to an early position raise if it left me with 2+ BB late in a tourney.