Tired of Getting Pushed Around

mojobluesman · #1 12-12-2005, 01:37 PM

2 hands HU against the same exact opponent.

Am I doing something wrong?

He's VPIP 18.94%, Preflop raise 10.16%, Tot Agg 2.0 after 132 hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 5 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero ?.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 5 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero ?.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

#2 12-12-2005, 01:44 PM

Next time you try to steal his blinds, flop better cards. If you really think he's FOS, 3-bet one of these flops. That said, it's quite possible he hit any part of these flops and just figures you for unpaired big cards.

MrWookie47 · #3 12-12-2005, 01:45 PM

Were these hands in rapid succession? Have you seen this guy c/r anyone else like this (sb defense, etc.)? Any Fold BB to Steal%? C/r%? What have you seen him show down?

Unless you know for a fact that this guy is taking shots at you based on your answers to the above questions, you have to give some credit to the theory, "Maybe he just got a hand against me twice." I think I fold both of these. If I'm not folding one, it's definitely the first one, which I'd call down, unless I hit my gutshot.

mojobluesman · #4 12-12-2005, 01:50 PM

I didn't detect any unusual patterns in his play, but these hands came about one round apart.

The reason I am upset about this is that it seems very standard that I get popped on the flop when I'm heads up in a steal situation these days. I'm having a tough time coping with it because I'm pretty sure some of them have to be "BS". Unless I hit the flop a little, it's tough to try to combat it even though I might be ahead a portion of the time and keep donating.

Guthrie · #5 12-12-2005, 03:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I am upset about this is that it seems very standard that I get popped on the flop when I'm heads up in a steal situation these days.

[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't get the memo? There was a conference among all the big poker sites and they e-mailed all the donks, telling them to do this.

In a multi-way pot, they'll just call down, hoping to catch something, but try to steal their blinds and they go all Gus on you.

PokerSlut · #6 12-12-2005, 03:35 PM

How is the first hand a steal situation?

I would have 3-bet the flop on the first hand. On the second I think I would fold. Any pair, ace, or KT+ beats you.

#7 12-12-2005, 01:50 PM

Hand 1: I call the turn, and probably fold the river UI.

Hand 2: You've got 4 possible outs with the gutshot, and even if you count the king as 3 full outs, you still need 5.5:1 to see the river, right?

I fold.

I'm probably too passive, though.

Fantam · #8 12-12-2005, 01:52 PM

I dont think that you are doing anything wrong with your preflop raises and both hands have followed a similar pattern.

I would be interested to know whether you have showndown any of your HU hand with this opponent.

HU play is very different to ring play, and I think that you need to showdown a hand, even with only A and a good kicker sometimes. Otherwise as you suspect, you can get pushed off the pot by an aggressive opponent (and it looks as though your opponent is a TAG).

I would even have considered 3-betting the flop with your AT to try to regain control of the first hand. You have to remember that while you will miss 1/3rd. of the flops, that your opponent will also miss 1/3rd. of the time too.

With a rainbow and all rags on the 1st flop, I think there was probably a fair chance that your opponent missed the flop also.

Once you start to show down a hand or 2 HU with the same opponent, I think that you will then start to get a better feel of how they play and be able to make better decisions on future HU hands with them.

WalkAmongUs · #9 12-12-2005, 02:10 PM

Wait till you're in this situation a 3rd time and then instead of betting the flop, check-raise and bet the turn if he calls. If he thinks your "i have UI overs" line is raise PF, bet flop, fold to raise, then he'll think you're "i really have something this time" line is check-raise flop, bet turn.

I use this line in this situation a lot of times, even if I whiff on the flop and it works pretty well.

Then i follow that up with catching a good hand on the flop and using the "i have UI overs" line, which lets me reraise the flop and bet the hand out. He then calls down the hand thinking I'm just trying to buy the pot.

Edited to say: this is obviously opponent specific. I've recently refused to play more than 2 tables in order to focus more on opponent tendencies and really improve my game.

EVERYONE SHOULD DO THIS. At least once a week. You'd be amazed at how much you can take advantage of at a table by really watching how people play.

IMO, you just can't physically pay attention to everything you need to when playing 4 tables or more. I can't even do it playing 3. For me personally, the amount my winrate increases by playing 2 tables and focusing far outweighs getting in 300 hands/hour 4 tabling. I learn nothing 4 tabling. I've improved more the past 2 weeks of 2 tabling than I have in 6 months of 4 tabling.

mojobluesman · #10 12-12-2005, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wait till you're in this situation a 3rd time and then instead of betting the flop, check-raise and bet the turn if he calls. If he thinks your "i have UI overs" line is raise PF, bet flop, fold to raise, then he'll think you're "i really have something this time" line is check-raise flop, bet turn.

I use this line in this situation a lot of times, even if I whiff on the flop and it works pretty well.

Then i follow that up with catching a good hand on the flop and using the "i have UI overs" line, which lets me reraise the flop and bet the hand out. He then calls down the hand thinking I'm just trying to buy the pot.

Edited to say: this is obviously opponent specific. I've recently refused to play more than 2 tables in order to focus more on opponent tendencies and really improve my game.

EVERYONE SHOULD DO THIS. At least once a week. You'd be amazed at how much you can take advantage of at a table by really watching how people play.

IMO, you just can't physically pay attention to everything you need to when playing 4 tables or more. I can't even do it playing 3. For me personally, the amount my winrate increases by playing 2 tables and focusing far outweighs getting in 300 hands/hour 4 tabling. I learn nothing 4 tabling. I've improved more the past 2 weeks of 2 tabling than I have in 6 months of 4 tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm starting to think a check raise line is pretty darn good if you know a player likes to to raise in these HU steal situations.

If the flop is raggy and all I'm doing is making a follow through flop bet anyway, then why not either take a free card or check raise if he bets and put him to the test instead of being in that position myself.

I also agree on 2 tabling vs 4. For bonus clearing you can make the case that 4 tabling is better, but for learning I think 2 is optimal.