KQo UTG ... I know this has been asked a million times

jediael · #1 05-09-2005, 11:10 AM

Typical Party 3/6, 10 handed.

You have KQ UTG. Do you raise, call or fold?

Now I know that some people will argue for any of these options.

But is there anyone on this board who think he's got the definate answer to that question? If so, what is the justification?

mtdoak · #2 05-09-2005, 11:17 AM

usually just call. Its too good of a hand to muck IMHO. The problem is that there are too many people behind you. I limp with it, but muck quickly if its 2 bets back to me.

Evan · #3 05-09-2005, 11:17 AM

There was a really long thread about this once, it was extremely boring. Let's not do that again.

I raise.

bobbyi · #4 05-09-2005, 11:35 AM

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There was a really long thread about this once, it was extremely boring. Let's not do that again.

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Not once. Dozens of times. I'm been reading twoplustwo for five years, and there are trends during different time periods of questions that get asked over and over again. For example, today there are tons of questions about sample size issues. For a long time, there were endless debates about AJo and KQo UTG. The majority of people and the majority of respected posters thought folding was best, but everyone agreed it was extremely close. It wasn't until recently (somewhere in the last two years) that consensus was actually reached because at that point more people started playing online and were able to track the profitability of playing AJ/ KQ UTG over large sample sizes, and it was agreed that these hands can be played for a profit if one raises UTG (more of a profit than limping).

istewart · #5 05-09-2005, 12:09 PM

Love your avatar.

CallMeIshmael · #6 05-09-2005, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not once. Dozens of times. I'm been reading twoplustwo for five years, and there are trends during different time periods of questions that get asked over and over again. For example, today there are tons of questions about sample size issues. For a long time, there were endless debates about AJo and KQo UTG. The majority of people and the majority of respected posters thought folding was best, but everyone agreed it was extremely close. It wasn't until recently (somewhere in the last two years) that consensus was actually reached because at that point more people started playing online and were able to track the profitability of playing AJ/ KQ UTG over large sample sizes, and it was agreed that these hands can be played for a profit if one raises UTG (more of a profit than limping).

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Great insight.

But... I would also like to provide a counter hypothesis:

The boom of play on the internet could have, in theory, turned these hands into +EV (from -EV) UTG.

I have heard more than one person say something like "but this advice (usually something print) applies to games 5 years ago"

To the OP: I raise it.

bobbyi · #7 05-09-2005, 05:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The boom of play on the internet could have, in theory, turned these hands into +EV (from -EV) UTG.

I have heard more than one person say something like "but this advice (usually something print) applies to games 5 years ago"

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. Games are much softer today, so marginal hands (and UTG, AJo and KQo are marginal) become profitable since your opponents will play so badly.

As a side note, I'm much happier raising AJo than KQo, especially in a soft game. I often get coldcalled by a weaker ace (usually suited ones). This means that with KQo, I'm really committed to bluffing the rest of the way to try to get him to lay down ace high. With AJo, I have showdown value and have the guy drawing to three outs plus a flush. If you are in a game where people routinely coldcall raises with any KXs and QXs, I guess that's a different story, but that's a pretty rare case. This more than makes up for the fact that AJ is dominated by one more hand (JJ) than KQ.

Piiop · #8 05-09-2005, 11:18 AM

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You have KQ UTG. Do you raise, call or fold?

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Raise.

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Now I know that some people will argue for any of these options.

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Yes, there is plenty of discussion about this exact topic. Use the search and you'll find a lot of interesting stuff.

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But is there anyone on this board who think he's got the definate answer to that question?

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Probably.

DMBFan23 · #9 05-09-2005, 04:44 PM

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But is there anyone on this board who think he's got the definate answer to that question?

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Probably.

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awesome. also, it hasn't been 6 months since the last KQo/AJo thread, so I'm not ready to discuss this one yet.

Octopus · #10 05-09-2005, 12:39 PM

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But is there anyone on this board who think he's got the definate answer to that question? If so, what is the justification?

[/ QUOTE ]

The definitive answer is: it depends.

Actually, the best answer (from sthief, I think, but I can not find the post) that I have ever heard to this question was: "Try it and see if you like how the hands develop." I did and raising is now my default play.