How valuable would a $215 coach really be?

[Voltron87]

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voltron, can you show how much more valuable cash games are than sngs?

i think per table cash games are probably more profitable, but sngs seem a lot easier to multi table well

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1. sngs are more boring. burnout is a factor. this is obviously IMO, but I have spoken to many people who agree and have the same sentiments.

2. say someone is 8 tabling 109s. say they get 10 in per hour. say they have a 10% ROI. they will earn slightly over 100$ an hour. When I played 4 tables of 200nl 6max, I earned 110$ an hour.

3. I think that 6max cash players are better poker players, and if one form of poker died out, or the players had to switch games, the equivalent cash game players would be better, or better prepared at least. One thing SNGs prepare people very well for is final table MTT play, but I do not think those skills are as hard to learn as the postflop skills in 6max cash games.

[Oluwafemi]

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fwiw, I would quickly pay someone $30,000 if they could make make me into a 15% roi $215er.

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Interesting. Not that I can help you but knowing that you play that level I am curious what your ROI currently is.

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me too. to hear citanul tell it, FieryJ is young and rich.

yeah. i think it might be worth it for you if you still have enough money left to play 215s assuming all other conditions I listed hold. for example, without a coach, you might start on a 0-2% ROI on 215s, most likely you will lose money when you start at that level right now. if that coach can somehow get you start at 8%-10% ROI, you can get your investment back after playing 1000-1500 215s, which probably will take 2-3 months. and after that you maybe able to get to a higher ROI and all the extra money you make is pure profit.without a coach, it may take you one year longer to reach the same level and very likely you may even never get there by yourself. of course, the training has to be very intense. and when you start playing 215s, your coach may have to sit by you side by side to intruct you on every move then analyze everything after each SNG is finished. this period may take 50-100 SNGs before you can play on your own. and even in that period, a good coach should get hand history from you periodically and critique your play. after a while, if the coach cant find any big hole in your game anymore, you can then be set loose forever. this is why i think the coach has to be very good at both poker and teaching.

[jon462]

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fwiw, I would quickly pay someone $30,000 if they could make make me into a 15% roi $215er.

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Interesting. Not that I can help you but knowing that you play that level I am curious what your ROI currently is.

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me too. to hear citanul tell it, FieryJ is young and rich.

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if he is running at 8-10% roi, he is still making a killing. An extra 5% ROI would mean 60k+ plus over 5k games for him, though, so it would seem like a good investment to me.

[Oluwafemi]

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fwiw, I would quickly pay someone $30,000 if they could make make me into a 15% roi $215er.

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Interesting. Not that I can help you but knowing that you play that level I am curious what your ROI currently is.

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me too. to hear citanul tell it, FieryJ is young and rich.

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if he is running at 8-10% roi, he is still making a killing. An extra 5% ROI would mean 60k+ plus over 5k games for him, though, so it would seem like a good investment to me.

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maybe, but how many $215ers do you know who've been able to sustain a 15% ROI long nough to where you could really trust that they can coach you to do the same?

[Weatherhead03]

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say someone is 8 tabling 109s. say they get 10 in per hour. say they have a 10% ROI. they will earn slightly over 100$ an hour. When I played 4 tables of 200nl 6max, I earned 110$ an hour.

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What about people who can 12-16 table. It would be hard to believe that anyone could do that profitably at a 200nl 6 max.

The thing that makes the hourly rate go up in SNGs is the fact that you can multitable them much easier than you can in cash games. Yes they do get short handed but for the most part its either push or fold, which in turn makes 12-16 tabling not out of reach.

[Voltron87]

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say someone is 8 tabling 109s. say they get 10 in per hour. say they have a 10% ROI. they will earn slightly over 100$ an hour. When I played 4 tables of 200nl 6max, I earned 110$ an hour.

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What about people who can 12-16 table. It would be hard to believe that anyone could do that profitably at a 200nl 6 max.

The thing that makes the hourly rate go up in SNGs is the fact that you can multitable them much easier than you can in cash games. Yes they do get short handed but for the most part its either push or fold, which in turn makes 12-16 tabling not out of reach.

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ok, so now were 16 tabling. at a 10% ROI. correct me if I'm wrong, but that is damn optimistic, if not unreasonable. we're looking at 200$ an hour, + rakeback. that is definitely earnable if you are a strong 400nl player. and there are soft 1000nl games.


all im saying is that there is a higher ceiling for cash games, and player who focus on them will ultimately become better, more fully equipped poker players. if you are happy with your hourly rate x tabling y limit, great for you. thats good. im not knocking sngs and saying theyre a waste of time, just that I would learn cash games.



there are things that complicate this though. 16 tabling = a dropoff in ROI and burnout. you cant 16 table for long. and i bet it would be possible to 8 table 200 nl 6m, though I havent tried.

[Jason Strasser]

Ive coached one player and they went on to do fairly well in both the 100s and 200s. It's not something I do anymore because its just not worth the time usually, I'd rather be playing myself. Also the best way to learn poker is not by getting some expert to teach you what to do in certain spots, but by learning how to think and adapt to certain situations.

[Weatherhead03]

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so now were 16 tabling. at a 10% ROI. correct me if I'm wrong, but that is damn optimistic

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It may be damn optimistic to want to achieve this but at the sametime it would be damn optimistic for an average person to expect to 6 table to 2000nl or 1000 6max. The thing about all of this is that the people that can multi table to high ends of the NL cash games are very good players and it is "optimistic" to expect to become ones. Most are usually gifted at playing the game and have worked very hard at getting an unbelieveable understanding of the game.

As for 16 tabling. People do do this, and yes i agree with you that it drops off your ROI but at the sametime look at Zee and how many tables he plays and how well he does.

[Scuba Chuck]

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Gigabet stated that iamcastleman charged him $20,000

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You should post the link. It's been a long time since I read that thread. My recollection of that post was that he said he paid his brother $20k, not that he was charged. Semantics of course, but it leads into my next thought.

The reason I bring this up is because this thought has always occurred to me. $20k is a huge up front fee for this IMO. I would wager that the agreement between the brothers was that Giga would pay his brother whatever amount his biggest one month earn was. Speculation of course.

Scuba