When to play marginal hands

PhiGamTN · #1 06-22-2005, 11:47 AM

So I have a 6/12 game I play in 3x a week. Really good game. Let me give you an example of a hand real quick: 5 limpers to me in the BB with j/9o I knuckle and the flop comes j63 no flush SB checks, I check to see the action behind me, checks to the button who I know to be loose as hell and will bet everything, SB folds and I raise. One guy who calls everything till the river calls two called and goes back aroudn to the button who calls, river is some blank and I bet and get called again in two places. River is a Q, I check and it gets check around button shows J/7 I show my J/9 and cold caller shows Q/4o (great game)

My question though is when should i be playing hands like k/j offsuit QJo and even k/10 and q/10 Do I want to raise them in LP with few limpers even though I have almost no chance to steal the blinds? Do I limp behind a bunch of limpers? How about a hand like KQo UTG... these are the hands i'm confused about... HELP!

AKQJ10 · #2 06-22-2005, 12:01 PM

First off, it sounds like you have a good perspective. People calling to the river with one overcard are only making you money in the long term, and you realize that.

[ QUOTE ]
My question though is when should i be playing hands like k/j offsuit QJo and even k/10 and q/10 Do I want to raise them in LP with few limpers even though I have almost no chance to steal the blinds? Do I limp behind a bunch of limpers? How about a hand like KQo UTG... these are the hands i'm confused about... HELP!

[/ QUOTE ]

I would limp with all of those except KQo UTG, which I would raise. Obviously your opponents are going to call with worse Ks and Qs, so punish them.

As for the other remaining hands, I don't think any of them is strong enough to raise, but KJo and QJo are strong enough to play in a game like this in late position in an unraised pot. KTo and QTo are more dubious, and J9o isn't worth playing (as opposed to J9s) -- you won't miss a thing if you fold them. Sounds like you're being aggressive when you flop top pair-medium kicker, and that's exactly right, because these guys will pay you off again and again when you outkick them.

(They'll just chalk it up to bad luck, but it's really an example of domination theory.)

Student · #3 06-22-2005, 01:21 PM

PhiGamTN is an expert compared to me, and your response to him seemed carefully composed and excellent. I'm at the point where I can start to benefit from direct answers concerning particular hands, and I could certainly use some advice on how to go about it.

Dave

SheridanCat · #4 06-22-2005, 01:38 PM

The best place to learn about posting hands is probably in the posting guidelines in the micro-limits forum. You'll find that here. This applies to all hand postings, I think, regardless of the forum or limit.

Just pick the forum and post away.

Regards,

T

Student · #5 06-22-2005, 02:31 PM

I've gone to the HE microlimits forum, for which you'd supplied the linkage, and it's well-worthwhile. The did say it's kind of like the limit hold'em beginner's forum, but my game is NL HE. However, there's a ton of material I should be mastering from this forum!

I successfully used the Bison Hand Converter. I used it for the last hand I played last night. As you can see I got outkicked, as Villain had 88AAJ, and I had 88AAT. There were several more such hands, leading me to a discouragement. But here's the hand!
________________________

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) converter

CO :#A500AF(Villain)/ ($3.07)
Hero ($1.33)
SB ($6.33)
BB ($0.76)
UTG ($1.92)
MP1 :#A500AF(Aggressor)/ ($2.18)
MP2 ($3.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 :#A500AF(Aggressor)/ raises to $0.04, 1 fold, CO :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.06, 2 folds, MP1 :#A500AF(Aggressor)/ raises to $0.3, CO :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls $0.26, Hero calls $0.24.

Flop: ($0.93) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Aggressor bets $0.22, Villain raises to $0.44, Hero raises to $0.59, Aggressor folds, Villain calls $0.59.

Turn: ($2.77) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($2.77) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $2.77

Student · #6 06-22-2005, 02:46 PM

I've worked with the Bison Hand Converter, to affect a more informative result. Thanks for your patience, as I learn!

Dave
___________________________

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

CO [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]Villain)/ ($3.07)
Hero ($1.33)
SB ($6.33)
BB ($0.76)
UTG ($1.92)
MP1 [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]Aggressor)/ ($2.18)
MP2 ($3.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]Aggressor)/ raises to $0.04, 1 fold, CO [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]Villain)/ calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.06, 2 folds, MP1 [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]Aggressor)/ raises to $0.3, CO [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]Villain)/ calls $0.26, Hero calls $0.24.

Flop: ($0.93) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Aggressor bets $0.22, Villain raises to $0.44, Hero raises to $0.59, Aggressor folds, Villain calls $0.59.

Turn: ($2.77) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($2.77) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $2.77

Results in white below: 
Villain has Jh Ah (two pair, aces and eights).
Hero has Ac Th (two pair, aces and eights).
Outcome: Villain wins $2.77.

AKQJ10 · #7 06-22-2005, 02:48 PM

Dave, this hand is so didactic that it wouldn't be out of place as an appendix for the 2nd edition of GSIH. Do you see why?

[ QUOTE ]
As you can see I got outkicked, as Villain had 88AAJ, and I had 88AAT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not too long ago, I used to treat every hand where I won or lost by a kicker as a bad beat. But I was wrong. Kickers are the essence of Hold 'em. Your net profit in hands you win versus lose by a kicker makes a huge impact on your overall winnings. I'd be interested if anyone's studied that empirically.

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 :#A500AF(Aggressor)/ raises to $0.04, 1 fold, CO :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls $0.04, ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Executive summary: ATo is not a good hand to reraise with.

However, I will say in defense of your reraise that people tend to make odd, fishy raises in micro-stakes games, particularly when they raise to 2x the big blind (which is rarely correct). But unless you know the raiser to raise with A5o and similar, you should consider his raise a warning. Just because it wasn't the preflop raiser who had you dominated (AJ vs. AT), it very well could have been! And in fact, if Villain were a good player then your reraise would be even worse, because he cold-called a raise with his hand.

With a raiser and a cold-caller, unless you're absolutely sure they're both players who will raise or cold call with absolute trash hands, you need to learn to fold ATo. Even if they'll raise with hands slightly worse than ATo, that's not enough to make your call (much less a reraise) profitable. Ed Miller discusses this at length in the limit section; this is one principle that applies in both LHE and NLHE.

To make it simple, just throw away ATo without a second thought. You'll only keep yourself out of trouble.

PuckNPoker · #8 06-22-2005, 02:58 PM

I encountered this exact scenario this weekend, very passive table with little to no hand selection, and cold calling with anything. I came to realize (AFTER posting some hands here and getting feedback), that marginal hands unsuited high cards in such a game really are bad. Since players are timid with their holdings, you wont see raises with cards other people might raise with, so those "trouble" hands that you know not to play against a raise now are trouble because you dont "see" the better hands coming. Basically unsuited high cards in a large multiway pot = bad. Suited and connectedness value go way up in a situation like that, since high card value goes down multiway, be prone to play lower and lower suited connectors as the number of limpers go up (obviously you need to be in LP to make this judgement).

As for the specific hands you mentioned, KJo,QJo,KTo,QTo definitely dont raise. And unless you are very very comfortable with your postflop play I'd just toss them in a large multiway field. People will be limping with ATo, AJ, KJ (in the case of you playing QJ), things like this and it will be very difficult for you to get away from your hand when you hit your dominated card. This weekend I made the mistake of playing A9o in LP in a big limped pot on a very passive table, and paid the price (AKo limped UTG).

AKQJ10 · #9 06-22-2005, 03:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This weekend I made the mistake of playing A9o in LP in a big limped pot on a very passive table, and paid the price (AKo limped UTG).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's a bit atypical. Even in passive games people usually raise Big Slick. But A9o is at best a marginal hand; it might be OK to play from late position for a single bet in some games (everyone correct me if I'm wrong here), but if you pair your ace you've still got to worry about kicker trouble. AK is an odd hand to limp with at low limits, but AT or AJ aren't.

PuckNPoker · #10 06-22-2005, 03:27 PM

I agree, I didnt make the adjustment, and paid the price.

Even though I accurately made the analysis of the type of table I was at, but I failed to adjust my starting hands based on that. Quite silly.