So I raised with my 77 and then

[TXTiger]

5/10 online at a non-converter supported site. Comments on all streets appreciated. I'll post some thoughts after responses. No reads except I think utg is loose preflop, but I haven't been here long.

utg limps, folded to me with 77 in CO, I raise, bb/utg call, 3 to the flop

Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

utg bets, I call, bb calls

Turn 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

utg bets, I raise, bb folds, utg calls

River 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

check check utg shows K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[mantasm]

I think you can go ahead and fold the flop. Even if he's betting some kind of draw, he has tons of outs to beat you because he probably has 6 pair outs plus his draw. You don't know what BB isn't going to do. This is a reverse implied odds situation.

[pandared]

FPS

[Tk79]

I release this hand as fast as I can hit the button. On the flop there are so many ways for you to lose if you are in fact ahead and so few way to win if you are behind. You also have the BB left to act who may be sandbagging with a J.

If UTG is betting a K or a J your drawing to 2 outs and if he has a J there is still a decent redraw if you catch a miracle on the turn.

If he is betting 2 clubs and say one of them is bigger than your 7s. He has 8 club outs (7c doesnt help), 3 kings, 3 of his hole card (6 if they are both bigger than your 7s).
Thats between 14 & 17 outs. Both ways he is a favorite.

Best case scenario is that he is on a total bluff. If he has both cards that are lower than your 7s your in great shape but how often is that going to be the case.

Whatever he may have you are either slightly ahead, or way behind. Either way Im not paying 2.5BB (without your raise) to find out. I fold this 3BB pot on the flop.

[chesspain]

1. I would fold the fold...however...
2. You didn't mention whether you were holding the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. If you didn't post it because you weren't paying enough attention at the time to factor that detail into your decision, then this is a minor leak in your game.

[TXTiger]

I debate on whether to raise these mid pairs preflop. I'm sure most people here would say raise, because raise is the default answer on these boards, but I'd be interested in hearing your opinions and reasoning. No one commented on the preflop.

If I am going to fold everytime someone bets out with a coordinated board, then it doesn't make sense to me to raise preflop. I do follow the reasoning, and I thought about folding. Even if someone is betting a draw they have all kinds of outs, and if I am behind I have 2 outs.

I decided to call the flop, folding to a raise from the bb. Then raise a non-scary turn with what may be the best hand. And I may get 88-TT to fold. BB may fold a weak king for 2 cold, or that might be wishfull thinking.

Back to the preflop. If I raise then fold to every flop bet, then it seams like a poor preflop raise. There will generally be 2 overcards to my pair that could have me drawing thin. And there will be a flush or straight draw fairly often.

I guess if everyone is passive enough to never bet their draws you can raise then fold to a flop bet. But it's quite common for people to bet draws into the preflop raiser. So everyone seams to agree to fold the flop on this hand (maybe I should not have posted the result since I've won many hands played in this same fashion), which leads me to ask how do you play 66-88 in lp after 1 limper. Do you think it's +ev to raise preflop then bet if checked to, but fold if you are bet into?

I'm not trying to disagree with some of the responses. If I was comfortable with how I played it I would not have posted. I am likely way behind or a little ahead (well ahead of something like 66 or a dumb bluff with A5etc) with 3 betting rounds to go. I just can't make myself comfortable with this as a standard play. By "this" I mean raising in lp and folding to a flop bet on a draw heavy board. Discuss please.


"FPS" = wrong


I did not have the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and you are correct that I did not consider it. If I catch either 7 I have a full house. And the value of a 1 card 7 high flush draw is not going to change my decision making. I don't see how I call a turn bet if another club falls hoping that my sevens are good or that a 7 high one card flush draw will be good.

[TXTiger]

anyone?

[jjacky]

i make this pre flop raise most of the time. and the strategy is not to fold to every bet after the flop. in the latter hand you had the absolute worst case scenario: the BB didn`t fold, the board were full of overcards, 2 suited and connected. when will you fold your pair if not here?

very often i have results like that when i play similar hands: blinds fold, flop comes with only one overcard, its checked to me, i bet, limper folds. or limper bets into me, i raise, he folds.

i think there are situations where a limp is better than a raise with 7s or higher pocket pair. especially if the blinds are very loose, or the limper is very loose after the flop. and the earlier the position of the limper, the more marginal is the raise of course.

[jjacky]

do you really think the 7 high backdoor flush draw would change the correct decission? i think not.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
do you really think the 7 high backdoor flush draw would change the correct decission? i think not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read Chesspain's post and was about to reply, but you basically took the words right out of my mouth. Does the 6th-nut one-card flush on a paired board really make a big difference, Chesspain?