So I raised with my 77 and then

[jjacky]

that's exactly the argument that is NOT valid. if the board wasn`t paired it would have been very important to have the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] but in this case he would make a boat with any seven! and a 7 high backdoor draw adds pretty exactly zero value to your hand.

[kslghost]

I don't think its necessarily right to devalue the 7 clubs as much as some people do. It's a possibile out, maybe not even worth a full single out, but it adds a very tiny amount of value for a possible showdown.

However, I do agree with most people that this is a drop on the flop. And sometimes you have to realize that a flop like this is one you will repeatedly have to avoid getting involved with in later streets. KJJ is a not a good flop for 77 and unfortunately your raise in this case is not going to see its value unfold. I definitely don't like this line. Calling on the flop accomplishes little. In my opinion, I would rather attempt my raise on the flop and hope for a free showdown in hopes I'm best. I'd avoid raising on the turn or river because of the fact that this flop is likely to hit someone, and most players seem to have trouble folding a pair of kings, even when their kicker is pretty weak.

However, I'm still thinking folding is the best play on the flop. If you feel the need to win every time you raise with a middling pocket pair, trying to bluff off the best hands and being bold about it, you're going to get caught too many times.

[mosta]

pf raise is standard. utg's lead is a little weird, assuming he's not savvy enough to do it with a jack. it's almost like he wants to get out of the hand with a clear conscience. raising the flop and then being done with the hand wouldn't be bad.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I did not have the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and you are correct that I did not consider it. If I catch either 7 I have a full house. And the value of a 1 card 7 high flush draw is not going to change my decision making. I don't see how I call a turn bet if another club falls hoping that my sevens are good or that a 7 high one card flush draw will be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are willing to call a flop bet but not call one more (or raise) on the turn HU when you have just picked up more possible outs with a four-flush? If he has a king it is unlikely he has a club, unless you think he limped UTG w/Kxo.

Consequently, if you aren't going to call or raise a turned club then this is all the more reason to just let this one go on the flop.

[jjacky]

i would count a 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] as maybe 0.5 outs. but there are 2 problems with it:
1. the chance to see the river given a correct play by hero is pretty low.
2. if hero did not have the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and someone was on a flush draw and the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] would have hit, the situation would have been very profitable.

after considering this, i think the value of the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is extremely low.

but despite this not very important point, we are at the same side anyway.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Firstly, you defenetely should be folding the flop here. The rest of this post is assuming you mistakenly call and the turn is a club.

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you get 10:1 from. Not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right. I made a math error. It should be about 6-1 odds. Nevertheless, you probably should still be calling if the turn is a club. You are way overestimating the amount of times villain is on a flush draw here (higher than a 7 as well). Remember, these guys are morons. They could be betting with low pocket pairs, inside straight draws, backdoor flush draws, anything. However, the most likely holding for villain is probably a King. Against a King, you have 9 outs which is way more than enough to call getting 6-1 odds. The times when you lose to a higher flush does not even come close to enough to make the call unprofitable. Also, remember that you are likely going to win 2 more bets from villain when you hit your flush, so your implied odds are even higher.