3bet fold to a cap?

[imported_stealthcow]

[ QUOTE ]
i think calling is better than not getting to showdown

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why? what hands (if any) do you see him capping with that i beat? i mean against a laggy player or someone whose like a 60/15 he could cap worse two pairs, or god knows what else. so i should get to showdown. but against a 20/17, if he caps my 3bet, theres 0 chance that i'm ahead. but i think i'm ahead of enough of his possible holdings that i should 3bet.

stealthcow-

[Walrus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think calling is better than not getting to showdown

[/ QUOTE ]

why? what hands (if any) do you see him capping with that i beat? i mean against a laggy player or someone whose like a 60/15 he could cap worse two pairs, or god knows what else. so i should get to showdown. but against a 20/17, if he caps my 3bet, theres 0 chance that i'm ahead. but i think i'm ahead of enough of his possible holdings that i should 3bet.

stealthcow-

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking is this, though I have yet to make it to 5-10, so I'm interested to hear what you and others have to say.

Above, Redd asked if you expected him to call with a big Q. If it's true that he he'll fold a Q, or another 1 pair hand, to your 3 bet, and cap with everything else that beats you, I don't see the point in 3 betting. We'll (almost)never collect the extra bet when we're ahead, and it will cost us another bb when we're behind, and we don't get a showdown.

I really want to show this hand down, so I don't see the need to risk another bb here, when I don't have to. Am I missing a lot of value by playing it this way?

[DCWildcat]

[ QUOTE ]
3bet call a cap. he could easily have AQ or KQ.

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I realllly doubt he has AQ or KQ. Call a flop c/r then cap the river with only TPTK or TP2K?

[jba]

"Above, Redd asked if you expected him to call with a big Q. If it's true that he he'll fold a Q, or another 1 pair hand, to your 3 bet, and cap with everything else that beats you, I don't see the point in 3 betting. We'll (almost)never collect the extra bet when we're ahead, and it will cost us another bb when we're behind, and we don't get a showdown."

how many hands are we behind?? how many hands are we ahead of? we only need like a 10-20% chance (ballpark but numbers can be run) that he'll call with those big queens in order to get value out of a raise here. we're not behind very many hands at all..

edit: i think 3bet/fold > 3bet/call > call

[Walrus]

[ QUOTE ]
we only need like a 10-20% chance

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You say 10-20%, Redd says 67%. That's a big difference. I am trying to learn spots to value bet more, but this spot doesn't feel right to me. I would hate to laydown top 2 here.

In light of that, I'd rather put one bet in here (call) than put 2 in to fold (with a slim chance for a call by a worse hand). Or worse yet, call a cap, with virtually no chance to win the showdown that I could have had 2 bb's ago...

So, imo, call > bet-fold > bet-call.

[jba]

not sure where i got the 10-20% but it's way off. Redd is pretty much on I think. if we're ahead of AQ(8)/KQ(8)/QT(8)/Q9(6) and behind KT(16) and AdKd/AdTd so we're good 30:18

[kidcolin]

His river numbers would be nice. If he's a typical 20/17 2+2er, 3-betting has very little value here, for the reasons red stated. Lone Qs fold, a couple of unlikely 2 pairs call, and flushes and straights cap us.