Sklansky on Abortion

[Olof]

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As for me, I'm pro-choice because I do not want to adopt any kids. If I were willing to adopt a potential abortee, I might consider being anti-choice. I would have much more respect for these so-called "pro-lifers" if they offered to adopt these unwanted babies.

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That is a weird argument. I have no desire to adopt an eight year-old child, does that mean you don't respect my opposition to the parents killing it?

I can understand it if people are pro-abortion because they think a foetus has no rights, but not because they simply oppose people having to take responsibility for their actions.

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As for me, I'm pro-choice because I do not want to adopt any kids. If I were willing to adopt a potential abortee, I might consider being anti-choice. I would have much more respect for these so-called "pro-lifers" if they offered to adopt these unwanted babies.


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That is a weird argument. I have no desire to adopt an eight year-old child, does that mean you don't respect my opposition to the parents killing it?

I can understand it if people are pro-abortion because they think a foetus has no rights, but not because they simply oppose people having to take responsibility for their actions.

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I readily admit that abortion is morally wrong. I think most women will regret having one. However, I don't feel comfortable pushing my views of what is morally right on someone if I'm not willing to do something about it. How can I tell some woman I know nothing about that she can't have an abortion when I myself am willing to do nothing of consequence to help take care of the baby?

Do you feel morally superior just because you want to make abortion illegal? Would you sleep easier at night if abortion were illegal, while thousands of women everyday were giving themselves abortions with coat hangers? Or going to illegal clinics?

Get real, bro. This [censored] is going to happen whether abortion is legal or not. Take a step down off your moral high horse and drink a cup of reality.

Furthermore, how many "rights" is this child going to have if you force some woman on welfare or some women making $5 an hour to have a baby she doesn't want? Is that child going to be loved?

I see in your "pro-life" view a desire to "punish" the mother for her "irresponsiblity." Personally, I don't really care to punish anyone for having sex. It's natural and everyone wants to do it. You, like most pro-lifers, don't give a rat's about the baby. You mostly care about making sure the mother is properly punished by forcing her to keep the kid. If you actually care about that "life," step up to the plate and offer to adopt one of these potential abortees. Then your "pro-life" views will be something more than empty rhetoric.

[hmkpoker]

Not a bad post. I have a few disagreements though.

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First of all as to whether abortion is "wrong". Well of course it is. And everybody knows it.

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I detest this whole "right" and "wrong" thing. Let's say an unwed 19-year old college student gets knocked up. (say the rubber bursts) She finds out a month into it when she misses her period.

If she goes through with the pregnancy, she will have a few options: adoption or raising the child. Putting it up for adoption will leave her separated from her child for an indefinate period of time, and there is often a strong sense of guilt and attachment that accompanies this. Raising the child could put both the mother and child in an extremely precarious situation; the mother, unskilled in her profession, would have to absolutely bend over backwards to make any kind of living for her and her child. The drastically increased risk of poverty will lead to an increased chance of poor health, delinquency, and certainly a lower quality of life for the mother. Both options require her to go through a very difficult and physically demanding nine months, and all expenses incurred therein.

If she aborts the baby, she avoids these issues. There may be some guilt-related issues that ensue; it varies from person to person. Not all women are emotionally destroyed after their abortions. (I apologize for not linking you to a study; I cite this only from knowing three women that have had abortions and haven't been devastated from them)

The fetus at this point is a tenth of an inch long. All of its systems are underdeveloped. It does not possess the intelligence of a human child yet. The only argument that I can see against this is religious in nature.

I think it may be more correct for some and less correct for others, but I don't think that abortion is universally "wrong"

[vulturesrow]

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If she goes through with the pregnancy, she will have a few options: adoption or raising the child. Putting it up for adoption will leave her separated from her child for an indefinate period of time, and there is often a strong sense of guilt and attachment that accompanies this. Raising the child could put both the mother and child in an extremely precarious situation; the mother, unskilled in her profession, would have to absolutely bend over backwards to make any kind of living for her and her child. The drastically increased risk of poverty will lead to an increased chance of poor health, delinquency, and certainly a lower quality of life for the mother. Both options require her to go through a very difficult and physically demanding nine months, and all expenses incurred therein.


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Let me summarize. The student will have to make tough choices based on her decision to have sex before she was ready to have a child...

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If she aborts the baby, she avoids these issues. There may be some guilt-related issues that ensue; it varies from person to person. Not all women are emotionally destroyed after their abortions. (I apologize for not linking you to a study; I cite this only from knowing three women that have had abortions and haven't been devastated from them)

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...but she can avoid making these tough choices by destroying an innocent life.

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The fetus at this point is a tenth of an inch long. All of its systems are underdeveloped. It does not possess the intelligence of a human child yet. The only argument that I can see against this is religious in nature.


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No. I can make a complete argument against this without ever mentioning God. Granted it may get a bit philosophical, but its not religious per se.

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I think it may be more correct for some and less correct for others, but I don't think that abortion is universally "wrong"

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the only case I consider legitimate is one where the life of the mother is threatened, which is rarely the case.

[hmkpoker]

Thanks, the summary was necessary, don't know why I was so verbose about it.

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No. I can make a complete argument against this without ever mentioning God. Granted it may get a bit philosophical, but its not religious per se.

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Please do.

[Olof]

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I readily admit that abortion is morally wrong. I think most women will regret having one. However, I don't feel comfortable pushing my views of what is morally right on someone if I'm not willing to do something about it. How can I tell some woman I know nothing about that she can't have an abortion when I myself am willing to do nothing of consequence to help take care of the baby?

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I refer to my pevious post: Unless you are willing to adopt someone's four year-old child, do you feel comfortable telling the parents not to kill it? If you think a fetus automatically has less rights than a child that has already been born, then you should use that argument instead.


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Do you feel morally superior just because you want to make abortion illegal?

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I have never said abortion should be made illegal, I said that your argument for why it should remain legal was bad.


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Would you sleep easier at night if abortion were illegal, while thousands of women everyday were giving themselves abortions with coat hangers? Or going to illegal clinics?

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This is completely irrelevant - the only thing that matters is whether a fetus has any rights. If it does (I'm not clear what I think about this myself), it shouldn't matter if some people may hurt themselves in the proccess of trying to violate those rights.


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Get real, bro. This [censored] is going to happen whether abortion is legal or not. Take a step down off your moral high horse and drink a cup of reality.

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I just questioned the way you made your argument, you should stop making unsupported conclusions.


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Furthermore, how many "rights" is this child going to have if you force some woman on welfare or some women making $5 an hour to have a baby she doesn't want? Is that child going to be loved?

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Again, this applies to the same extent with a child that has already been born. If life as an unwanted child is so hard, do you support euthanasia?


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I see in your "pro-life" view a desire to "punish" the mother for her "irresponsiblity." Personally, I don't really care to punish anyone for having sex. It's natural and everyone wants to do it.

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Does forcing parents to care for their offspring always amount to 'punishing them for having sex'? If so, you must really hate the fact that deadbeat dads might be forced to pay child support. Also, I find it strange that a liberal (?) would use the fact that something is natural as an argument, is abortion 'natural'?


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You, like most pro-lifers, don't give a rat's about the baby. You mostly care about making sure the mother is properly punished by forcing her to keep the kid.
If you actually care about that "life," step up to the plate and offer to adopt one of these potential abortees. Then your "pro-life" views will be something more than empty rhetoric.

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And you're telling me to get off my high horse. I again refer to my original question: I have no intention of ever adopting any child whatsoever, does that make my opposition to parents killing their eight year-olds empty rhetoric? If not, why?

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As for me, I'm pro-choice because I do not want to adopt any kids. If I were willing to adopt a potential abortee, I might consider being anti-choice. I would have much more respect for these so-called "pro-lifers" if they offered to adopt these unwanted babies.

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That is a weird argument. I have no desire to adopt an eight year-old child, does that mean you don't respect my opposition to the parents killing it?

I can understand it if people are pro- choice because they think a foetus has no rights, but not because they simply oppose people having to take responsibility for their actions.

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Get the terminology right.

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Imagine that tomorrow all doctors had the ability to terminate pregnancies in either of two ways. The way it is done now. Or by delivering the baby alive, regardless of its prematurity and keeping it alive with technology. What percentage of woman would opt for the second choice? If doing what they want to with their bodies was their real reason for keeping abortions legal they all should make that second choice.

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As a woman who is currently pro-choice I would fully support making the second choice the only legal method of terminating a pregnancy.

My first thought after reading it was: this is a good example of how atheists are not immune to irrationality. This part: "The child's physical destiny is determined at the time of conception. (And his consciousness, self, or soul, is determined a few days later.)" Somehow DS thinks a glob of cells with no brain can have a consciousness. This is irrational.

[canis582]

If you are pro-choice, then you go on the foster parent list.

The current trend to criminalize abortion is more to keep poor people poor than any 'moral' reason. Sure there are those who have a real objection to it; but those in BushCo see criminalizing it as a way to fill more sets of army boots with warm bodies.

For all you people on the fence about this issue, the next step is to criminalize contraception, an idea the DEA is salivating over.