On SSHE: A Discussion of the "Mystery Turn Raise"

[ZenMusician]

With KT in BB (assuming I don't raise) I play flop same and
we're still in the same situation without reads on the turn.

I had hoped to generate more discussion (and maybe get into
the famed SSHE Digest) but I do not have Alizée as my avatar
and I live on the East Coast.

-ZEN

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my play for all the cases:

Readless: Call down.
LP: Call down.
TAG: Call down.
LAG: 3-bet.

Readless I can't put a player on a hand for obvious reasons. For an LP player it could be a K or 2-pair or a set or who knows but I call down. I can't put the TAG on a limped K, but TAG doesn't always mean a good player, so this could be a set of 5's or QTs, I've seen both. The LAG is the easiest to 3-bet because they'd do this with any K or sometimes a 3 or sometimes 8-high.

[/ QUOTE ]
what Shant said. Folding sucks.

[Borodog]

Without read, I simply call down. I think simplest is best in this situation. You are likely beat, because the King on the board has "pre-flop raiser" written all over it, but against an unknown at $2-$4, I am big on call-downs with TPTK. Doubly so at a table I just sat down at, for meta-game reasons (as I've mentioned in a couple other threads today). You might be ahead of a tard, you might have hidden outs against a hand like 54s, and it's good to be seen calling down with TPTK. It discourages pot shots at you in later hands by any observant player whether they're in the hand or not.

Just get to showdown as cheap as you can, learn what you can learn, and move on to the next hand.

<i>
Here is the sort of question I see most of all in Micro & SS.

A.) What line loses the least when behind / makes most when ahead?
B.) Given no reads, what is standard. How about a TAG, LP, LAG?
C.) What is the range of hands for MP2 and what does this raise mean?
</i>

<b>B)</b> TAG, LAG, no read: 3 bet turn. If opponent caps, then check call river. If opponent calls, then bet call most rivers
LP: call down, but not too optimistically

<b>C)</b> No reads: 54s and A3 are a big chance here but there is enough KQ, KJ and K7s-KTs to keep me playing. Middle pairs (66-99) raise-floding is a fair possibility. slowplayed AA is possible, and a little less a chance of 22,44,KK,AK,QQ-TT,55. I most expect to see a lower king here, and I'd be very surprised to see kings up. Adjust accordingly for tight and loose players.

all in all, i think this raise means, in order of likelihood:
1)TPLowerK
2)I want to know if hero has a (better) King or if my 99 is still good
3)A3

Hence:
<b>A)</b>aggressive turn, passive river

[ZenMusician]

To those who advocate 3-betting a LAG:

What percent does an unknown LAG show you K5 (or such).
The point about hidden outs was fantastic; something I think
we ignore too much. My concern is that we are reverse-dominated
after this turn and we have fewer outs than we think in this case.

I counted 3 similar situations last evening and 2/3 were a reverse
dominated TP..the other was the 99 trying to find out if he was
still good. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Keep it going!

-ZEN

[BigBrother]

I agree that against an LP in MP2 this screams raggedy 2-pair. I call down and suck it up, cause sometimes I'm good or I'll suck out.

I honestly can't find a hand that a TAG would open-limp from MP2 that is beating you. If you know he's tight preflop then it smells of FPS. Then the question becomes whether to 3-bet or not. I think I call and donk a river that blanks or improves my hand.

Against a LAGGY opponent I am usually 3 betting/calling and then check/calling most rivers.

I also agree that early in a session calling down and showing TPTK is not a bad thing.

[oxymoron]

[ QUOTE ]
Without read, I simply call down. I think simplest is best in this situation. You are likely beat, because the King on the board has "pre-flop raiser" written all over it, but against an unknown at $2-$4, I am big on call-downs with TPTK. Doubly so at a table I just sat down at, for meta-game reasons (as I've mentioned in a couple other threads today). You might be ahead of a tard, you might have hidden outs against a hand like 54s, and it's good to be seen calling down with TPTK. It discourages pot shots at you in later hands by any observant player whether they're in the hand or not.

Just get to showdown as cheap as you can, learn what you can learn, and move on to the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been my line of reasoning but the question has been bugging me lately. Thanks for the post.