overpair JJ facing heavy flop action - Page 2

curtains · #11 09-24-2005, 02:07 AM

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I did move all in, BB folds, MP calls and shows QQ, my luckbox fails to kick in.

I didn't really doubt this move, but it occurred to me afterward that I didn't really have any conception of the range of MP and just figured that he could certainly make that move with AT. What kind of range do people put him on, and do people still think this is essentially an autocall if you haven't seen him make dubious plays already?

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I don't really put people on ranges, or at least if I do, its all subconsious. My range for him is that probably he can't beat JJ, but sometimes he can. However not enough so that you shouldn't move allin.

Autocratic · #12 09-24-2005, 02:07 AM

I'd basically say that every decision you have been forced to make post-flop could have been made easier with a preflop raise.

gumpzilla · #13 09-24-2005, 02:13 AM

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I don't really put people on ranges, or at least if I do, its all subconsious. My range for him is that probably he can't beat JJ, but sometimes he can. However not enough so that you shouldn't move allin.

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I generally don't at the table in great detail, either, because doing it explicitly takes too long, but I like to try and do it when looking at hands on the side just so I get some kind of sense.

Lloyd · #14 09-24-2005, 02:23 AM

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Perhaps I was unclear: each contestant gets one rebuy, and I've taken mine. I'm pretty sure the villain had taken his as well.

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This makes it even more important to raise pre-flop and figure out where you stand. I still think you go broke on this hand but I might consider laying it down depending upon my read of the villain.

Lloyd · #15 09-24-2005, 02:25 AM

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I don't really put people on ranges, or at least if I do, its all subconsious. My range for him is that probably he can't beat JJ, but sometimes he can. However not enough so that you shouldn't move allin.

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I'm guessing this gets back to your previous main focus of multi-tabling SNGs. While you can't always take the time to put your opponent on a range of hands, when the decision is for all your chips you better take the time. Not doing so will severely impact your ability to consistently do well in MTTs - IMHO.

curtains · #16 09-24-2005, 02:30 AM

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I don't really put people on ranges, or at least if I do, its all subconsious. My range for him is that probably he can't beat JJ, but sometimes he can. However not enough so that you shouldn't move allin.

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I'm guessing this gets back to your previous main focus of multi-tabling SNGs. While you can't always take the time to put your opponent on a range of hands, when the decision is for all your chips you better take the time. Not doing so will severely impact your ability to consistently do well in MTTs - IMHO.

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I don't think so at all. Once you are experienced you can put people on ranges subconsciously. I don't have to sit here and try to figure out every possible hand this guy could have. I've been in this spot many times before and am experienced enough to handle it.

Also I don't think you realize just how elementary it is to play 4 MTTs at once, compared to what I'm used to playing. I doubt if it would affect my results in the slightest. Once I play upwards of 6, then there might be some impact.

Let's put it this way, I know for sure that after I put this guy on a "range", I would move allin. I don't have to waste my time and actually figure out every possible hand this player might have. Also it's not easy to put the morons that we play against every day on a range. It's not as though you can expect them to be rational most of the time.

Lloyd · #17 09-24-2005, 02:34 AM

Ok. Maybe do a post on this and see what others think. While you could certainly be an exceptional exception, most of the people I respect would probably say that taking the time to put someone on a range of hands during a critical moment is essential.

curtains · #18 09-24-2005, 02:37 AM

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Ok. Maybe do a post on this and see what others think. While you could certainly be an exceptional exception, most of the people I respect would probably say that taking the time to put someone on a range of hands during a critical moment is essential.

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I don't consider this moment critical. And my point is that I can do it unconsiously. When you have enough experience you don't have to treat every situation as though its the first time you've seen it. I can draw back on my knowledge of many similar types of hands, and use it to draw faster conclusions than most whom have less experience or whom have done less work on poker.

Lloyd · #19 09-24-2005, 02:47 AM

You don't think making a decision for all your chips is critical? All I know is that guys like Harrington, Lederer, and Fossilman have given countless examples of putting people on a range of hands during play. Like I said, I guess you're the exceptional exception.

Exitonly · #20 09-24-2005, 02:48 AM

i'm with curtains here... i'm not claiming to have his experience, or that i never try and put my opponents on ranges... but typically when i'm playing it's on 'instinct' orbasically my past experiences. When i review/analyse plays later that's when i start putting them on ranges and doing the math and such.

Oh, but i do keep the 'Powertoys Calculat' open while i play.. so i's not ALL instinct.