standard? brantford 20/40

[imported_stealthcow]

games great. most flops are seen 5+ for 2-3 bets. most pots are taking 2-3 scoops from the dealer to make it over to the winner.

i have AKo in the bb.

ep player raises. i haven't seen much of this player, one hand where he seemed kinda? aggressive postflop, although i dont remember the specifics of the hand much.

mp player cc. he's got 6k in front of him. he's very laggy, very bad showing down Jd2d for mid pair and in most pots.

lp player cold calls. but theres a lot of this going on with hands like T9o 22-55 and some junk.

sb comes along too and i raise AKo in the bb. all 4 come along.

flop A Q J rainbow (5 players, 5bb)

i bet ep raises mp cold calls lp player folds sb folds ... i call.

turn 5 (making 2 diamonds).(8bb) i check ep bets mp calls i call

river 6 (non diamond)(11bb) i check ep bets mp folds i... ?

[stinkypete]

no mayo on a BLT is definitely not standard

[ QUOTE ]
games great. most flops are seen 5+ for 2-3 bets. most pots are taking 2-3 scoops from the dealer to make it over to the winner.

i have AKo in the bb.

ep player raises. i haven't seen much of this player, one hand where he seemed kinda? aggressive postflop, although i dont remember the specifics of the hand much.

mp player cc. he's got 6k in front of him. he's very laggy, very bad showing down Jd2d for mid pair and in most pots.

lp player cold calls. but theres a lot of this going on with hands like T9o 22-55 and some junk.

sb comes along too and i raise AKo in the bb. all 4 come along.

flop A Q J rainbow (5 players, 5bb)

i bet ep raises mp cold calls lp player folds sb folds ... i call.

turn 5 (making 2 diamonds).(8bb) i check ep bets mp calls i call

river 6 (non diamond)(11bb) i check ep bets mp folds i... ?

[/ QUOTE ]
You must call the river, and I like the turn check since you have outs, and I like your flop play of just calling the raise since it looks to me like you got outflopped but you still have outs, 4outs against QQ,JJ. 7 outs vs AQ, and 10 outs vs AJ and youre still tied with AK. Three betting the flop would be overkill. Preflop I do not like your action. Although it is likely you may have the best hand and even if you dont you may have an equity edge youre pushing here, but being out of position, and the fact that your hand is not suited would deter me from 3 betting here, I do not want to build the pot higher with offsuit cards that are more likely to make top pair than anything else, and thus give everyone even better pot odds to chase me. Plus by not 3 betting preflop you can put yourself in a better strategic postflop position, like if the flop comes out ace high, you can lead into the raiser and if he has a weaker ace he will raise and help protect your hand, or if you flop a monster you can check and let the raiser bet so you can trap the whole field. With all that said If I had AKs I wouldve 3 bet preflop, but with AKo I would just call.

Westley, you are a thoughtful poster and a welcome addition to the forums, but it appears that you think that all players are TAGs. The post makes clear that that isn't the case here. Hero has way to much of an equity edge not to 3 bet AK preflop.

I'd be tempted to bet out on the turn since you don't want it checked through and you don't even mind a raise from EP because it's more likely to fold EP with his gutshut or 6 outer.

[Noo Yawk]

Bet right into EP on the turn so he can raise and charge the MP for drawing. Then call the river bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Westley, you are a thoughtful poster and a welcome addition to the forums, but it appears that you think that all players are TAGs. The post makes clear that that isn't the case here. Hero has way to much of an equity edge not to 3 bet AK preflop.

I'd be tempted to bet out on the turn since you don't want it checked through and you don't even mind a raise from EP because it's more likely to fold EP with his gutshut or 6 outer.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that the hero may be giving up some edge by not reraising preflop, but I also think it is possible to make up for that lost edge by putting the hero in a better strategic postflop position. For instance, If the hero 3 bets and everyone calls, and the flop comes out Axx or Kxx, and now the hero bets the orginal raiser may not even raise this flop with a weaker Ace or King(I realize in the actual hand the original raiser did in fact raise the flop but thats not my point becuz not everyone may be as aggressive as this person and plus he could easily be raising the flop on 2 pair) My point is by reraising preflop, it makes it that much harder for the hero to protect his hand which means there is a less likelihood of his top pair holding up. When the early guy raises and the action gets back to the hero the pot is already very big, at this point my goal is to play the hand in such a way that gives me the best probability of taking down this pot so I would just call and hope to set it up where the original raiser can be my partner and raise the flop when i bet, when i hit my flop. I understand that there is value to reraising preflop, but there is also value in not reraising preflop. By not reraising preflop the hero puts himself in a better strategic position postflop which also gives the hero a higher probability of winning this big pot. I believe once the pot reaches a certain size, increasing your chance of winning that pot by a few percentage points is more valuable than pushing your equity edge.

[imported_stealthcow]

for what its worth, if sb 3bets, i'm capping this every time.

[imported_stealthcow]

why not 3bet the flop lead turn?

what hands do you put mp on? i always feel like its important to put yourself as either being ahead or behidn in the hand. and the gray area in between is when you just want to get to showdown. if i think i'm ahead i either 3bet lead turn or call, check raise turn. if i think i'm behind i check call check fold (but i'd need a read).and the gray area i check call check call.

i am kinda intrigued by leading the turn because it never really crossed my mind. would you mind explaining it a little bit more?

stealthcow-

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the hero may be giving up some edge by not reraising preflop, but I also think it is possible to make up for that lost edge by putting the hero in a better strategic postflop position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that you think differently than most 2+2'ers but I think this is just wrong. 1 - you are giving up a lot by not raising these loose players, 2 - you are out of position so it is going to be hard to make up bets lost later on, 3 - these guys are loose and the pot is big so there probably not much strategy to play except bet/raise as much as reasonable and more if you flop good.

[Fillamoore]

[ QUOTE ]
Westley, you are a thoughtful poster and a welcome addition to the forums, but it appears that you think that all players are TAGs. The post makes clear that that isn't the case here. Hero has way to much of an equity edge not to 3 bet AK preflop.

I'd be tempted to bet out on the turn since you don't want it checked through and you don't even mind a raise from EP because it's more likely to fold EP with his gutshut or 6 outer.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO NO NO...westley is completely right in my opinion. I will concede that a strong case can be made for raising, but the truth is, by not raising, you'll be in a better position to induce mistakes from your opponents on later streets, which is where you're profits come from in the first place (of course you know this). If your goal is to simply win a bigger pot when you win, then 3 bet...but to us skilled poker players thats obviously not the goal. We want to make our opponents to make mistakes here, which is more likely to happen is you dont increase the pot by 50%. I guess the question is, is what i gain by raising preflop worth more than what i get back by not raising (added deception, tactical position already described by westley, and increased potential in making mistakes) I'll be honest here and say that i definitely dont know the answer for sure here....anyways good luck.