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  #11  
Old 08-26-2005, 09:30 AM
Darryl_P Darryl_P is offline
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Default Re: consistency and ethical positions

Further to the gypsy example I'd say a typical conservative chooses a) on impulse in the heat of the moment (on Thursday during rush hour, tired from a long day's work) but given time to reflect he will choose b) (on Sunday after church with time to relax and reflect)

He "knows" b) is the right answer (for him) but his frailties and imperfections (including lack of ability and willingness to use logic) cause him to choose a) sometimes.

Basically he goes through regular cycles of being strong and weak, and his choice varies depending on what phase he's in.

So while I agree that logic certainly helps to get to one's right answer more often, the main ingredient missing is related to inner peace, self-awareness and strength which are best achieved by deliberately letting go of logic sometimes.

[Edit]

But in this example I cannot accept that there is no right answer for a particular person, or that it is impossible to find.

I do accept, however, that the right answers for different people can be different and if these different right answers crop up often enough between the same groups of people, then the natural consequence is conflict (possibly of the messy, ugly type).
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2005, 09:42 AM
PairTheBoard PairTheBoard is offline
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Default Re: consistency and ethical positions

[ QUOTE ]

PTB --
"My point is that there often is no one well defined "consistent" way to apply a whole complex of competing moral principles. There is no well defined mathematics for the "proper" way to bring them all into balance."
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David Sklansky --
"There is NEVER a way to consistently apply competing moral principles."

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This was the context of David's statement. I think it's clear we were talking about Competing principles, not Contradictory ones.

You can try creating some kind of vector calculus for competing principles if you like. Maybe it sounds good in theory but I think in practice the complexity would overwhelm the math in short order.

PairTheBoard
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2005, 09:44 AM
Jman28 Jman28 is offline
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Default Re: consistency and ethical positions

[ QUOTE ]

If I remember my logic course correctly, if you have a system with two axioms that contradict each other ANYTHING you want can be deduced from that system. If you can deduce A, you can also deduce not A. Someone out there can remind me if this is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is true.
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  #14  
Old 08-26-2005, 10:00 AM
PairTheBoard PairTheBoard is offline
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Default Re: consistency and ethical positions

[ QUOTE ]
Darryl_P --
<font color="white">.
</font> But in this example I cannot accept that there is no right answer for a particular person, or that it is impossible to find.


[/ QUOTE ]

The way I see it, the person is going to come up with his judgement for balancing the competing principles. I don't see the need to label that judgement "right" in any sense, including "right for him". It's just his judgement. You can try to convince him to come to a judgement similiar to yours. But I don't think you will be able to force Your Way with logic. Logic will be a tool in your arguments, but it will not act as a God-Like Authority.

PairTheBoard
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  #15  
Old 08-26-2005, 10:07 AM
Darryl_P Darryl_P is offline
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Default Re: consistency and ethical positions

[ QUOTE ]
David Sklansky --
"There is NEVER a way to consistently apply competing moral principles."


[/ QUOTE ]

Come to think of it I think I remember reading that. It's surprising he would say that, but there it is in black and white so I have to concede this one to you.
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  #16  
Old 08-26-2005, 10:17 AM
PairTheBoard PairTheBoard is offline
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Default Re: consistency and ethical positions

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
David Sklansky --
"There is NEVER a way to consistently apply competing moral principles."


[/ QUOTE ]

Come to think of it I think I remember reading that. It's surprising he would say that, but there it is in black and white so I have to concede this one to you.

[/ QUOTE ]


It was in the high falootin thread.
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  #17  
Old 08-26-2005, 10:38 AM
Darryl_P Darryl_P is offline
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Default Re: consistency and ethical positions

[ QUOTE ]
Logic will be a tool in your arguments, but it will not act as a God-Like Authority.


[/ QUOTE ]

I sure hope I didn't imply anything to this end since I agree with the limitations of logic.

The last thing I would want to do is coerce him to agree with me based on what I say or any force that I may implicitly or explicitly apply.

The only thing I might want to urge him to do (even with coercion) is to dig deeper into the issue to figure out where he really stands. If it's a completely neutral position, so be it. If it's on the opposite side of where I am, so be it.

The larger conflicts emerging from many cases of diverging views are only loosely related to a single incident, apply to both sides equally, and can often be averted via compromise. However, both sides are wise to be aware that there are limits to how much compromise can be made over time before problems arise, and that macro factor should also figure into each person's equations IMO.

That's basically all I'm saying.

[Edit]

Is it safe to say we've reached a point of divergence in our axioms, ie. that I assume such problems (based on competing, but not contradictory values) have a right answer (for each person), and you assume they don't necessarily (because the whole mishmash of competing values can easily simulate a set of contradictory values, say)?
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  #18  
Old 08-26-2005, 11:31 AM
PairTheBoard PairTheBoard is offline
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Default Re: consistency and ethical positions

[ QUOTE ]
Darryl_P --

Is it safe to say we've reached a point of divergence in our axioms, ie. that I assume such problems (based on competing, but not contradictory values) have a right answer (for each person), and you assume they don't necessarily (because the whole mishmash of competing values can easily simulate a set of contradictory values, say)?


[/ QUOTE ]

To begin with, I'm not setting up any axioms here. I'm just trying to describe how I see things actually working.

" that I assume such problems (based on competing, but not contradictory values) have a right answer (for each person), and you assume they don't "

I'm saying each person comes to his best judgement on how to balance all the competing principles involved. I prefer to call it his "judgement" rather than his "right answer".

"and you assume they don't necessarily (because the whole mishmash of competing values can easily simulate a set of contradictory values, say)"

No. I'm not saying anything about them simulating a set of contradictory principles. If the principles are contradictory then like David points out, all conclusions follow logically. As I said in the highfalootin thread, the process by which the person arrives at his judgement is really beyond our understanding because it involves not only an intractable complex of competing principles but the unique life experiences of the individual person.

That's not to say you can't sway his judgement with logical argument. After all, your argument then becomes part of his life experience as well. But you might sway his judgement in other ways too. Like with a good song, or a nice work of art. Or a compelling movie. Or an intriguing mystery novel. etc.
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  #19  
Old 08-26-2005, 11:48 AM
Darryl_P Darryl_P is offline
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Default Re: consistency and ethical positions

[ QUOTE ]
I'm saying each person comes to his best judgement on how to balance all the competing principles involved. I prefer to call it his "judgement" rather than his "right answer".


[/ QUOTE ]

I think we are talking about two different things because a person can make different judgements on the same exact issue in different frames of mind, after differing amounts of thought, or at different points in time. I'm saying that such a person necessarily violated his own values at least once because, of his differing judgements, only one is "his right answer". Are you saying there is no need to reconcile anything here? Or are you saying it's not for us to judge that? If it's the latter, then do you think I'm doing something wrong if I use coercion to try to convince someone that there is indeed something to reconcile?


[ QUOTE ]
the process by which the person arrives at his judgement is really beyond our understanding because it involves not only an intractable complex of competing principles but the unique life experiences of the individual person.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I can accept that it's beyond our understanding (without significantly more information), but do you think it's beyond HIS understanding?
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  #20  
Old 08-26-2005, 12:32 PM
PairTheBoard PairTheBoard is offline
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Default Re: consistency and ethical positions

[ QUOTE ]
PTB --
I'm saying each person comes to his best judgement on how to balance all the competing principles involved. I prefer to call it his "judgement" rather than his "right answer".
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Darryl_P

I think we are talking about two different things because a person can make different judgements on the same exact issue in different frames of mind, after differing amounts of thought, or at different points in time. I'm saying that such a person necessarily violated his own values at least once because, of his differing judgements, only one is "his right answer".



[/ QUOTE ]

So you see why I prefer the term "judgement" to "right answer". Of course a person's judgement can change. Whatever process that takes place within him to produce his judgement can be perturbed by new experiences, newly learned principles, and by his organic condition. As is often the case with complex systems, sometimes even a slight perturbation can cause a major shift, like the butterfly effect. To claim that there is a Fixed "right" judgement is just an artificial concept which you are imposing on an organic reality that cares nothing about your theories.


[ QUOTE ]
Darryl_P --

Are you saying there is no need to reconcile anything here? Or are you saying it's not for us to judge that? If it's the latter, then do you think I'm doing something wrong if I use coercion to try to convince someone that there is indeed something to reconcile?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. When I used the word "force" above, I was not talking about coercion. I meant it in the sense of being able to force recognition of the answer 4 by showing the argument is 2+2. If you're talking about physical coercion I would point to the old saying, "a person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". If your talking about something else, it might be worth a new thread.



[ QUOTE ]
PTB --
The process by which the person arrives at his judgement is really beyond our understanding because it involves not only an intractable complex of competing principles but the unique life experiences of the individual person.
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Darryl_P --

OK I can accept that it's beyond our understanding (without significantly more information), but do you think it's beyond HIS understanding?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the Entire process probably is beyond his understanding. A lot of it is going on subconciously. Although who knows. Maybe a completely enlightened Buddah would be aware of his inner workings well enough to know.

But that's not to say you can't pry open Some of the process and apply analytical techniques which may sway his judgement. Like I said before though, you might be more successful by having him watch a good movie instead.

PairTheBoard
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