Stud 8/B, too loose?

[frappeboy]

I'm *attemping* to learn stud 8/b, I was wondering if you guys think the 4th street call is too loose?

7 Card Stud High-Low ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.88 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (1.88 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (1.94 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (3.94 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

River - (5.94 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (7.94 BB)

[Nick_Foxx]

what do you mean? a lot of people would raise on 4th st. and then take the lead given that the King showed absolutely no strength at all by limping in last position

[mscags]

4th is a clear fold. Even, if villian doesn't have whatever he is representing, you are still behind to his board, not to mention almost clearly drawing to half the pot unless you hit some miracles (as you did) fold fourth, and wait for a hand where you have two way potential and you hit something constructive.

[mscags]

Take the lead? What do you think that will do? Villian just caught a suited Ace to go with his King. Hero has absolutely nothing. Taking the lead here is pure horror IMHO.

[Nick_Foxx]

sorry i misread the original post and thought he had a 4-flush

[mscags]

If he had a four flush then I definitely agree with you.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering if you guys think the 4th street call is too loose?


[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you know what's coming. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I will sometimes take one off with a three-flush and a three-low on fourth, especially if I have an Ace in my hand. Here, you're heads-up against someone with a strong board and your low draw is pretty weak. I think I save my money for a better gambling opportunity.

Fifth street is pretty dubious, too. Nice hand, though.

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering if you guys think the 4th street call is too loose?


[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you know what's coming. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I will sometimes take one off with a three-flush and a three-low on fourth, especially if I have an Ace in my hand. Here, you're heads-up against someone with a strong board and your low draw is pretty weak. I think I save my money for a better gambling opportunity.

Fifth street is pretty dubious, too. Nice hand, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy, can you explain what is wrong with 5th street? That seems mandatory, especially if you peeled one off on 4th. Note: I'm new to this game, but I'm just saying what seems logical to me. Against his probable range of hands, you should have a better than 33% ev, right?, or am I missing something?

[dibbs]

Like yourself I am learning stud split and would fold this, but I play tight early and poorly after so JMO.

In a word, yes, but first 3rd street:

You have about a 28% EV after the deal and a 5% shot at scooping and a 29% shot at the low half. To put this in perspective, a random hand will have about 15% EV and about a 10% chance at any half or 4% for the scoop with 7 players. All your numbers are live, hearts are live, you have the scariest low card and there are no aces. In this situation, even with the 8, I would have come in for the complete bet. The bring-in only is too passive here. Some people would argue that an 8 in the hand should never raise but given the total situation and the fact that my position is likely to be good on later rounds if I don't brick hard, I would raise. Most people will call a complete bet if they were going to call a bring-in. What might lead you to call only would be that the 3 cards don't make a straight, but the suits help.

After all the folding, you are heads up which means no dead money will be added to the hand to help a split pot. You are now the favorite to scoop (about 35% of the time). You have a 53% EV and will lose it all only 28% of the time. Pretty good position to be in.

Now the semi-brick. You hit a Q but it is the runner for hearts so it's not all bad. But of course the other player hit about the best card possible from your view besides another king. Now there is an partial royal flush on the board (not that you should expect that to be the hand but it provides many outs to straights, flushes, high two pair etc.) You are no longer the favorite to scoop (42% for Seat 1 and 30% for you). You EV has dropped to 44%. Note that this is less than 50% in a split pot game. That may seem obvious but since you should never play for half the pot unless you have the odds, you should really never play for less than half. That's why these heads up plays need to be really scoopable because you are not going to make any money if you split. You have to hit a runner runner flush and it might not be the best flush at this point so you chance for high is pratically shot amd your shot at low didn't get any better. I also don't know how this player normally plays but think about what they could have given that the spades and K were not fully live on 3rd street. A hidden low? Aces? High straight? I'm thinking fold here though the call is "cheap" this round but I think that line of thinking is dangerous without the draw being to the possible nuts. Because they hit the suited A you needed a low heart not a high one...or any low for that matter. ANother stat to take note of: You would be uping your contribution to the pot to $3.25 to win $3.40 on average. You'd be playing to get your money back.

I realize that after the all my talk of raising on 3rd I'm telling you to fold on 4th but you can't play poker with hindsight.

Now since you did call what next? Well you got (somewhat) lucky and hit another low but all this really did was raise you to the level of slight underdog for the scoop. You are obviously shooting for the low only now unless you get amazing cards. Now to call your contribution to the pot will be $7.25 to win $7.61. Still playing for your money back. I don't know about you but my money is just fine when it's sitting in front of me. Same outcome, zero risk. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Ok Mister Luck, what's with hitting the A, huh? Nice draw but still doesn't change the fact that you should have been there up until now. But since you were, you now have leapt into the lead. In fact, you are freerolling on the locked in low! Freerolling is one of the sweetest moments in poker and the main reason I play high/low. My hold'em buddies never get to taste the thrill of the "can't lose" as often as I. But still you need to focus on winning if you can because there is no real money in this split. But nonetheless It's so satisfying to get the opportunity to bet with impunity. In fact, it's like it's a new hand.

Your opponent can't scoop the hand anymore because of your low but you still have a 23% shot at doing that with your straight draw (though technically you could win with just a pair or high card for all you know). So you played the rest out just like you should have.

How did it turn out?

What's funny about this hand is that my advice was pretty much thwarted at each turn. I told you to raise and you hit a dud. I told you not to play and you got a freeroll on the two best low cards. But I'm sure that you understand that poker isn't about what did happen but what might happen. Good luck!