23K 1/2 hands- still a breakeven rock! Leaks?

[MrWookie47]

A number of other posters and I play 22/12 poker or so. I think grjr has a VPIP of something like 97.24%, but he's the exception. You should be able to play 17/9 poker while adhering to SSH's loose preflop chart as long as you occasionally try to steal the blinds, and you should look to add hands as your comfort level rises and you get a good lock on the table.

I suspect, though, that the biggest reason for your losing is poor postflop play, i.e., folding too much. If you add more hands (11-14%), but fold postflop more often to compensate, you're just going to be tossing away the money that you tossed in the pot to play those hands.

[Innocentius]

I mostly agree with what other posters have already said. This is really a post-flop problem. I wouldn't recommend immediately trying to get your preflop stats up to something like 18/9. Rather, focus set the aim around 14/7, and concentrate on playing the hands well postflop. And yes, your aggression factor seems high, probably due to too much folding. Maybe you are already doing this, but otherwise, try to think about implied odds as well as immediate when you decide whether to call or fold with a draw. Also, if you are likely drawing, but there is a small chance that your hand might actually be best, you can accept worse pot odds.

[tiltaholic]

Hi- People have given you suggestions already, and I'll add the following:

[ QUOTE ]
Small profit, but no 40 BB downswings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you need to re-evaluate how poker actually works. A 40 BB "downswing" is NOT even a "downswing". It's a losing session. It's a little bit more than a 25 BB buyin. Last night, I lost 40 BB, then won 75 BB. (Two separate sessions) Thats how it goes. Some nights I win 40 BB and then lose 75 BB. It's variance. If you fear being in the red over the short term and it affects your play, it is significantly harder to be a winning player.

[jrz1972]

14/7 is still way too tight.

For now, I would recommend to just follow the SSHE "tight" chart religiously. That will at least get you to 17/7ish, which is fine until you get your postflop play down. Then you can start adding a few more hands and raising a bit more.

The reason I recommend sticking to a preflop chart is because you obviously have some very serious problems in your game. If you follow a good chart, at least you'll fix your preflop leaks while you concentrate on closing your postflop leaks.

[VoraciousReader]

I agree with everything so far. You are playing much too tight and (it seems) giving up much too early. What's interesting is that you know this, and are adequately bankrolled for your limit, but are still playing scared. While studying Small Stakes Hold'Em is an excellent start, I also suggest The Psychology of Poker by Al Schoonmaker. It helps you get a handle on what type of player you are and why, and how you can work out your particular weaknesses.

[FlyWf]

Overall: 31.3 and 62(!).

Since 6/1 it's 32 and 54, so the downswing is probably not a result of any new leaks rather than my old leaks+more opportunities to make mistakes+running bad.

[Ortho]

[ QUOTE ]
Overall: 31.3 and 62(!).

Since 6/1 it's 32 and 54, so the downswing is probably not a result of any new leaks rather than my old leaks+more opportunities to make mistakes+running bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. 31.3 seems reasonable, but 62 is huge! I'm thinking that because you're so tight you should be going to showdown more, like maybe 35 because your hands are so quality.

You are DEFINITELY folding a ton of winners, though. You should be winning at showdown more like 50-55%. You are almost certainly folding too much postflop.

[FlyWf]

Yeah, it's not like I tilt or anything, and I absolutely understand swings, one problem was that playing so weak tight makes for very low variance play, and the high variance days tend to be up. So despite playing a fair amount of SnGs and NL, the bad run while being looser was telling my brain to tighten back up since I wasn't used to ever losing a whole buyin at limit.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, it's not like I tilt or anything, and I absolutely understand swings, one problem was that playing so weak tight makes for very low variance play, and the high variance days tend to be up. So despite playing a fair amount of SnGs and NL, the bad run while being looser was telling my brain to tighten back up since I wasn't used to ever losing a whole buyin at limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what you need to unlearn.
it's very possible to lose what you are calling a WHOLE BUYIN at limit poker.

if you want improve your game as much as possible...don't constrain yoruself by thinking about styles of play which are "low variance". How you play shouldn't be low variance or high variance. Variance is just variance. It exists in the ebb and flow of the game and in the distribution of the cards. How you play should be the best poker you can play, not determined by winning x much or losing y much. Lift your brain out of the picture by not concerning yourself with whether you win or lose a hand, or a session, or a day, or a week. Focus on the attributes of the game in your particular situation. Focus on making the correct poker play at each juncture and being confident that you know the reason for said play. The winning will sort itself out.

Now, we all like to win and hate to lose, but winning in poker can make you think you are playing optimally when in fact you are playing suboptimally. Case in point here. So, make a good faith effort to dissociate winning/losing from your plays, and question/study your play in the absence of winning/losing and you'll forget about breaking even at 1/2 because you won't be.

and, if you're unsure how to adjust your game - compare your personal preflop routine to the SSHE chart and see how it difers. Or find the AIM thread and post your screenane and ask someone to watch over your shoulder. (PM me if you want)

[FlyWf]

Thanks to all of you for your help. I had been pretty much working off the "Tight" SSHE chart(not hand by hand, but I studied it and was following the general guidelines), I'm now going to play more off the loose chart. When I moved up from Party's .5/1 Party(high 30s seeing flop) to Crypto 1/2(high 20s) I clearly overcompensated.

Ego is always a problem, and I associate check-calling and open limping with being a fish. Also, I need to stop dabbling in NL and SnGs if I ever want to get good at limit, since they are bleeding weaktight preflop and overly tight/aggressive postflop into my limit game. You don't call somebody down with TPBK in a SnG when you think you're beat.


Losing a wholebuyin is a matter of course when playing NL, but at limit it takes several rough beats or playing a lot of hands that miss flops. By playing superpremium hands overtight postflop I was rarely playing hands that completely miss the flop and I was folding before a beat got bad. I was costing myself dozens of bets and depriving myself of valuable poker experience, but I seriously went 18K hands without ever hitting that "add more chips" button, I [censored] you not.