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  #31  
Old 10-21-2005, 03:14 PM
scrapperdog scrapperdog is offline
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Default Re: Flop a joint, river pairs board

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I felt like a donk and figured that the check/call would be the standard 2+2 line and that I messed up, but I guess it's pretty close considering the responses.

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I honestly dont feel it is that close. CC would be my choice, keep the pot down if you are beat, give someone a chance to bluff. I dont see much of a point in betting this unless you think someone has a high overpair that they cant get away from, which given the action pre flop is pretty doubtful.
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  #32  
Old 10-21-2005, 03:17 PM
FreakDaddy FreakDaddy is offline
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Default Re: Flop a joint, river pairs board

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If I think he's a donk, I'll check/call hoping he'll bluff. If he's a thinking crafty player, I bet/fold.

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Isn't this completely backwards? A donk is more likely to have checked the set, or to have limped T6 or 96 UTG. A crafty player seems more likely to bluff his busted flush when he senses weakness. Care to explain your logic?

I guess I'm thinking c/c either way.

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It's a question of what game level theory is my opponent thinking at. When I say crafty I'm implying that a good player understands that he's taking a risk on a draw heavy board, knowing that you'll think that he's drawing, in order to win a big pot. This is a great spot for that kind of play, and 'most' stars players are thinking players.

I don't consider a 'crafty' player to be someone who will bluff a busted flush draw. Any donk can do that.

Now considering that I just read hero (poster) say this was his first hand at the table, this becomes quite unlikely that a crafty player would make such a move. This hand becomes much more wind tunelled where I'd check/call the river.
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  #33  
Old 10-21-2005, 03:21 PM
FreakDaddy FreakDaddy is offline
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Default Re: Flop a joint, river pairs board

[ QUOTE ]
At the time, I felt like he had a piece of the board and not hearts, so I went for a value bet.

When he raised, I said "oops." But getting almost 3:1 on my call, I felt I coulden't let it go. He shows 99 and MHING.

I felt like a donk and figured that the check/call would be the standard 2+2 line and that I messed up, but I guess it's pretty close considering the responses.

Thanks for the comments everyone.

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Stars = more crafty players and you have to think a little deeper = check/call
Party = very few crafty players = bet/call

What was your impression of his play after this hand(after watching him play more)? Donk or crafty?
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  #34  
Old 10-21-2005, 03:22 PM
flyangler flyangler is offline
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Default Re: Flop a joint, river pairs board

:grunching:
I believe I would bet for value. 1/2 pot sized would be my tendancy. Not too much so as not to scare them off. I would be hoping they would call. A re-raise would bother me though I don't think I could lay this down.
I am not too scared of the 6, unless someone was really slowplaying a set (unlikely) then your hand is good here.

Please feel free to criticize this post at will.


Edit: Now that I have the results I feel like a Donk too. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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  #35  
Old 10-21-2005, 03:26 PM
FreakDaddy FreakDaddy is offline
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Default Re: Flop a joint, river pairs board

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[ QUOTE ]
Most likely you're beat on this board here though unless he's mega donk.

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No matter what, this guy is a mega donk, right? If he's ahead he either limped UTG w/ T6 or 96, or he checked his set on a super draw heavy board.

Obviously we can't be entirely comfortable w/ the river call, but I can't see folding. I'm very interested to see results.

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Have you played on stars at 200nl or above? I have. You're thinking is quite backwards for this level. Most people understand the basics of the game. They understand draw heavy boards and they know how to maximize value on these kinds of flops or fold small pots when they get outdraws. Villian played this hand perfectly for a crafty player imo. He made it look like a busted flush draw on the river, whic was his plan right from the beginning (if I had to bet).
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  #36  
Old 10-21-2005, 03:30 PM
AceHiStation AceHiStation is offline
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Default Re: Flop a joint, river pairs board

I'm curious if villain reraises all-in with an A on river... I'm willing to bet he does. You just got unlucky on river, money would have gone in anyways. I think he played the flop/turn pretty poorly. Letting the flush draw come is awful IMO.
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  #37  
Old 10-21-2005, 03:51 PM
FreakDaddy FreakDaddy is offline
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Default Re: Flop a joint, river pairs board

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious if villain reraises all-in with an A on river... I'm willing to bet he does. You just got unlucky on river, money would have gone in anyways. I think he played the flop/turn pretty poorly. Letting the flush draw come is awful IMO.

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He played it great imo. Hero is potting each street, so if hero is betting a draw, he's doing villians work. Villian gets to build a big pot with position, and push the river on a non-heart, which will likely get paid off. I'd play it the same.

I'd rather win a big pot with this flop texture, rather than win a small one. Villian likely puts hero on smaller set.
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  #38  
Old 10-21-2005, 03:56 PM
flyangler flyangler is offline
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Default Re: Flop a joint, river pairs board

[ QUOTE ]
Have you played on stars at 200nl or above? I have. You're thinking is quite backwards for this level. Most people understand the basics of the game. They understand draw heavy boards and they know how to maximize value on these kinds of flops or fold small pots when they get outdraws. Villian played this hand perfectly for a crafty player imo. He made it look like a busted flush draw on the river, whic was his plan right from the beginning (if I had to bet).

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Crafty or not this is simply spewing until he hits his miracle 6. He was beat postflop (until the river) and just didn't know it. Slowplaying 99 from UTG is very weak IMO. I would have at least CR the turn if I were villain. I don't think Villain was thinking about possibly being beat at any time in the hand and will probably pat himself on the back for being so skilled a player. Giving hero the opportunity to draw (assuming villain put him on a draw) is just asking for trouble.
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  #39  
Old 10-21-2005, 04:04 PM
TheWorstPlayer TheWorstPlayer is offline
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Default Re: Flop a joint, river pairs board

[ QUOTE ]
Crafty or not this is simply spewing until he hits his miracle 6. He was beat postflop (until the river) and just didn't know it. Slowplaying 99 from UTG is very weak IMO. I would have at least CR the turn if I were villain. I don't think Villain was thinking about possibly being beat at any time in the hand and will probably pat himself on the back for being so skilled a player. Giving hero the opportunity to draw (assuming villain put him on a draw) is just asking for trouble.

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This would be a good post if you weren't overlooking the fact that villain was getting correct odds to draw at every point and that he played the hand perfectly, by the Fundamental Theorem of Poker. Oops!
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  #40  
Old 10-21-2005, 04:08 PM
GrunchCan GrunchCan is offline
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Default Re: Flop a joint, river pairs board

I'll overbet the pot here. Bet an even $100.
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