Anyone else do this?

[TaoTe]

[ QUOTE ]
Most people do this, it's called a continuation bet - hopefully to win the pot right away.

However, its sucess is heavily dependant upon your position, your read on oponents (will they fold?) and their read on you (do they know you will do this?).

Remember - you only have a weak drawing hand, don't go too far.

Hope this helps,

G.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, AK is a fairly weak hand. I normally won't play it. I play only aces and sometimes kings.

[AASooted]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most people do this, it's called a continuation bet - hopefully to win the pot right away.

However, its sucess is heavily dependant upon your position, your read on oponents (will they fold?) and their read on you (do they know you will do this?).

Remember - you only have a weak drawing hand, don't go too far.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, AK is a fairly weak hand. I normally won't play it. I play only aces and sometimes kings.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're clearly being sarcastic, which is probably confusing here in the beginner forum. Yes, AK is a very strong hand pre-flop, but if the flop misses you, it can get you in trouble if you play it too strongly. That's what the previous poster was getting at.

[elindauer]

As a start, bet if you have two or fewer opponents, but check if you have three or more opponents. With a small number of opponents, you bet because you probably have the best hand and want to protect it. Once you start getting very multiway, AK unimproved is more likely to be drawing, and you are also less likely to make everyone fold.

Good luck.
Eric

When the flop HITS me after a PF raise, I will now bet some of the time and check-raise some of the time.

That way if the flop misses me, I can check/fold without feeling too bad about it. And there is always an outside chance of a free card due to fear of the check-raise.

[aargh57]

Very few online low limit players will give you a free card because they're afraid of you check-raising them. They may give you one out of being just passive but most of your opponents won't be thinking that hard.

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
Very few online low limit players will give you a free card because they're afraid of you check-raising them. They may give you one out of being just passive but most of your opponents won't be thinking that hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may just not be doing it enough. Many low limit players are oblivious to nearly everything but their own cards, but if you check-raise them a couple of times, they remember it for the rest of the session. This can lead to numerous advantages for you in both early and late position since not only will your opponents fear to bet their marginal hands, giving you a better chance to draw out on them when you miss, but they'll bluff much less frequently than is correct and fail to extract full value for their winners. You definitely want a strong image in limit hold 'em and frequent check-raising of your strong early position hands helps build that image.

Blind defense / stealing can work the same way. After one or two strong blind defenses and/or steals, I will frequently see the CO or button player pause for a moment as if preparing to raise and then fold their hand instead to my big blind. Maybe this means nothing, but I get the impression they hold a hand they are thinking about limping or raising with and then decide it's just not worth it against me. Since I'm holding random cards out of position, this is a very good thing for me on average.

[aargh57]

I kind of figured that someone would call me on this. Notice I said online low limit. My point was that I don't think you should expect this play to work as often as you think it will. I know some of the books say it will and I won't exactly disagree but most of the books that say this reference it to live play where you can put a face on the person doing it. I think that with how frequently players move in and out of the game and how little attention some of them pay I think it loses some advantage online. Also part of my point was that I don't think you should make a general rule about checking your overcards because you think that your opponents will give you a free card because of your check raises. There's a lot of other factors (which have been discussed) that need to be taken into account when playing overcards. I'm not saying that table image doesn't come into play but I think that you're overvaluing it. Even in SSH it says " For the most part, your opponents do not pay attention to your playing tendencies. Even most of those who are vaguely aware usually do not bother to adjust their play based on their observations."

BTW, I do check raise often.

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
I kind of figured that someone would call me on this. Notice I said online low limit. My point was that I don't think you should expect this play to work as often as you think it will. I know some of the books say it will and I won't exactly disagree but most of the books that say this reference it to live play where you can put a face on the person doing it. I think that with how frequently players move in and out of the game and how little attention some of them pay I think it loses some advantage online. Also part of my point was that I don't think you should make a general rule about checking your overcards because you think that your opponents will give you a free card because of your check raises. There's a lot of other factors (which have been discussed) that need to be taken into account when playing overcards. I'm not saying that table image doesn't come into play but I think that you're overvaluing it. Even in SSH it says " For the most part, your opponents do not pay attention to your playing tendencies. Even most of those who are vaguely aware usually do not bother to adjust their play based on their observations."

BTW, I do check raise often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're mixing some posts together. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Having the flop check through actually happens *more* frequently than I think it will causing me to miss some check-raises. I don't expect many flops to check through, I simply think it happens more than your original post allowed for, particularly if you are a check-raiser. My check raises are primarily to cut odds to middle position players with a side benefit of some image considerations that I'm very sure do take effect, but are of fairly limited value by themselves. I certainly wouldn't recommend check-raising for image purposes as your primary consideration.

But I will defend the online low limit players' observational prowess a little. They may not realize I haven't played for the last 30 consecutive hands and then came in for a raise in EP, but they do remember a check-raise performed against them and it does affect their play. Almost no one is completely oblivious.

Fair point but I did say "sometimes".

"Sometimes" you know a check-raise will work on EP because the guy on the button will always bet any 2 cards as a "positional bet".

Anyway, the point of the original question was, should continuation bets be automatic? I think definitely not and this was was a big leak in my game.

But when the flop has very likely missed *everyone* they should be automatic.

Example you raised PF with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Flop is: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hands like AXs and small pairs probably fold to your bet. And if anyone does call you may still have some outs.

[aargh57]

I would just say this. What is your check raise % according to PT. Probably not higher than 5% on the flop (if even that high). Now, in a full ring game you're playing about 17% of the hands. In EP less but the blinds more so it will even out to the first 5 positions (those you're most likely to checkraise) to about 17%. That means in 100 hands you'll be in 17. Of those you'll check/raise maybe once. Now the guy that you check/raised may remember it happening but most of the rest of the table won't. Most online players don't play much more than 100 or 200 hands at any one table. You can see what I'm getting at here. I just don't buy that you're typical low limit player is going to pay that close attention to the fact that you check/raise once in 100 hands. Hell, if he knew that fact he may even think that you don't hardly ever check/raise and be more likely to bet than fear you.