overpair JJ facing heavy flop action

[curtains]

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You don't think making a decision for all your chips is critical? All I know is that guys like Harrington, Lederer, and Fossilman have given countless examples of putting people on a range of hands during play. Like I said, I guess you're the exceptional exception.

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If your decision is whether or not to call an allin preflop with AA, would that be critical too? Would it be critical to call an allin with top set on the flop?

The decision has to be a relatively close one before it becomes critical. In this type of tournament, in this spot, this would not be a close decision to me.

Also I suspect that plenty of the hands these above mentioned players have put forth in their book, are not close or difficult decisions for them either, however they go over all the ranges for the novice players who need to learn to think in this manner.

Of course sometimes you have to try your best to put your opponent on a range of possible hands. However the way it's done on here I find is not very effective. People just seem to give a list of possible hands without taking into effect the frequency in which their opponents will have one set of hands over the other.

People also often seem to forget that there is always a decent % chance that your opponent is a moron,that these hand rages are way way off, and your opponent could have some random nonsense.

I see too many attempts on 2+2 to put some random player from a $11 rebuy tournament on very narrow/specific range of hands.

Anyway I'm not making my point very well, I just think that the whole hand range thing is overdone/overemphasized. Sometimes you will come up with a range where every logical hand your opponent could have would lead you to fold. However it's rare that I see people on 2+2 take into account that their opponent may be completely illogical or insane, as is the case with many MTT opponents that we will face online.

[curtains]

Anyway I'm probably being stupid. Hand ranges are important, however one should be able to make a good estimate extremely quickly and unconsciously, especially online. Doing harder work on them in advance is probably a decent idea as it should lead you to make quicker decisions when necessary.

Most of the time when I see proposed hand ranges on 2+2 I think they are bogus, yet see almost no one correcting the suggestions.

Sometimes you just have to know what the right play is without having to resort to such tedious methods. It depends on the situation and the level of experience that the player has. However if you ask a hand range, and some strong player doesn't feel like its necessary to give a specific one, they probably don't need to.

[Roman]

Agree 100% with curtains, that man is smart.

[gumpzilla]

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However it's rare that I see people on 2+2 take into account that their opponent may be completely illogical or insane, as is the case with many MTT opponents that we will face online.

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Insane or illogical people will hold a range of cards too, it will just be incredibly wide.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but again I think there's a pretty big difference between doing it at the table and doing it when looking at things after the fact. To make an analogy from SNG analysis, there are a lot of times where you will feel ICM analysis of a situation is unnecessary because you don't need it. That doesn't make the analysis wrong or irrelevant.

[curtains]

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However it's rare that I see people on 2+2 take into account that their opponent may be completely illogical or insane, as is the case with many MTT opponents that we will face online.

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Insane or illogical people will hold a range of cards too, it will just be incredibly wide.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but again I think there's a pretty big difference between doing it at the table and doing it when looking at things after the fact. To make an analogy from SNG analysis, there are a lot of times where you will feel ICM analysis of a situation is unnecessary because you don't need it. That doesn't make the analysis wrong or irrelevant.

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Yeah I hear you, just something about the way it's gone about here bugs me a bit. Take a look at the play a hand with the masters thing preflop.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...t=all&vc=1

We are trying to put the cutoff on a range?

They could have practically anything!! They are limping in on the cutoff with over 100x the BB. You can't immediately put someone on a range here. What I'm saying is that its just not the most relevant thing to talk about in such a situation. Sometimes it's important, sometimes it's not.

It's also not important because you can usually eliminate like 80-90% of the possible hands after there is some postflop action.

Anyway despite all this I'm sure that I'm putting my opponent on a range by thinking that they could have virtually any 2 cards, and I see that some people gave ranges that were way too tight and thus need work in this department, although almost none of them were corrected.