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  #21  
Old 06-10-2005, 06:55 PM
Shillx Shillx is offline
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Default Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?

Good god the advice in this thread is bad.

You only have a draw. Not only that, but it is a pretty shitty draw. It is significantly weaker then a typical OESD. The flop raise is close but is probably okay since if you make the straight it will put a 4-STRT on board. This will obviously slow everybody down, so making this raise somewhat helps you mask your hand. Should a four hit on the turn, people might not figure you for a straight if you raise the flop.

Note that it isn't really a value raise in this spot. You are getting 4 way action, and your draw is probably worth less then 25% of the pot at this point since a lot of things can go wrong if you do make a straight (chop chop, lose to a bigger straight, etc). You are only making it to get more action should it actually come in. When the PFR makes it 3-bets on the flop, it is time to shutdown and start just calling.

On 4th street again you should just call his bet. If the flush comes in on the river, no one will figure you for it. The PFR will lead out on the river and then you can value raise the field. If the straight comes in, he might or might not bet but you hope that he does (and then you value raise of course). The best time to raise the turn on a draw is when you also have some kind of showdown value. So let's pretend that the turn was a king in this hand. Now it might be worth a raise since you will be calling a bet on the river when you miss. It might be better to raise since you want him to check to you on the river. If you make a straight you can bet, but you can check behind if you miss (and showdown your pair of kings). You can also bet your kings on the river if you want.

So I might just call on the flop (or I might raise). I always call on the turn. What you are doing is just pure spew.

Brad
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  #22  
Old 06-10-2005, 07:11 PM
istewart istewart is offline
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Default Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?

This is a hand from awhile back. I was just sifting through past hands, and, having just read this thread, this seemed interesting. I thought it was correct at the time, but now I'm a bit unsure. Not exactly the same situation but kind of relevant. Tell me what you think.

My note at the time was that UTG+1 was LAGish preflop, passive besides that.


Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (14 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (7 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (18 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB calls $0.40 (All-In), MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 21.40 BB
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  #23  
Old 06-10-2005, 07:17 PM
flyangler flyangler is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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Default Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?

Just to put a cap on this (again thanks for all the wisdom) I did fold after the river came A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and so did MP1. The BB chose to show us his hand and it was...


6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I about shat myself. His PFR was with 46o, which of course my would have made my big straight better if it hit and the flush was good too. It seems bizarre that someone would raise this hand PF without knowing what cards were coming on the flop. I have no idea what the motives were behind this move... but I guess it worked to perfection for this freak.
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  #24  
Old 06-10-2005, 07:31 PM
Disconnected Disconnected is offline
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Default Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?

I would have bet the flop here. Other than that, this looks good to me.

On a side note, thanks for posting the hand as a response to this thread, rather than creating a new thread. I'd rather see a longer theme thread than many different hands posted that are similer. Just a personal preference.
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  #25  
Old 06-10-2005, 07:37 PM
Mathieu Mathieu is offline
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Posts: 85
Default Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?

In the dark:

FLOP:

What I like about the raise is that it might buy you 2 more outs (weak ones though) if BB has AK, and it may also buy you a free card on fourth street. I don't think the raise is very much for value though. Your OESD is weak (vulnerable to redraws), and may only split the pot. Your over card can't be worth that much on a coordinated flop against 4 opponents.

I don't like:

"My re-raise here was as much for info from the BB as anything and when he 3-bet, I decided he must have a big pair or AK."

If info was your main purpose for raising, then I think you are paying too much for that info.

TURN:
18 outs? This is too generous. The turn card was not all good news. If someone has T9, you only have 9 outs. If someone stays with a T, you have at most 4 outs for OESD (most likely less since if anyone has a 6 you split).

I doubt that the turn raise has value, since that J weakened the OESD. Also the K outs will rarely be good in this spot.
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