Three SSH Principles I See Misapplied

[GrunchCan]

bump #1

[DMBFan23]

good post dave. but, IMO you left off the number one misunderstood concept

drum roll please...

waiting for the TURN

still nicely done

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
good post dave. but, IMO you left off the number one misunderstood concept

drum roll please...

waiting for the TURN

still nicely done

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah yes, the waiting for the turn misapplication. I should've put this in #3 because that's where it mostly comes in IMO. "I didn't bet/raise the flop because I wanted to wait until the turn to protect my hand." We'll make that a 3a) case.

[waynethetrain]

Great summary.

If I could add 1 thing it would be this.

I think someone should write a whole book on playing second pair properly.

I've read and re-read the relevant material in SSH, WLLH, and Hilger's book over and over. I come away from every single session thinking about the hands I may have misplayed and then play them back via PT. Some I post here. Virtually every single hand is a second pair situation.

Maybe I missed a lot of the discussion here when SSH first came out, but I routinely find myself in situations where I don't know if leading out, checking and folding, checking and calling, or raising to protect is the correct move.

I know the basic thinking/factors in determining the correct move like number of opponents, having overcards/redraws, pot size, number of overcards that could come on the turn/river to beat you, your position, the position the bet came from etc...

Weighing it all just seems extremely difficult relative to other situations. If I am having this much trouble, I am willing to bet anything that so are a lot of other people even if they are more confident in their play. I'd even be willing to bet that most people are either leaking money with second pair or not maximizing their profit due to constant misplay.

[colpres]

"Ah yes, the waiting for the turn misapplication"

What do you mean by the W-F-T-Turn misapplication? How is this mis-applied and what is the correct understanding?

[GrunchCan]

Sometimes when the pot is very large, if you put a raise in on the flop it will fail to protect your hand becasue almost anyone would be correct to call even 2 cold, due to pot odds.

However, in some of these instances you can wait for the turn to raise, when the bets double in size. In that case, you more effectively protect your hand because people would now be incorrect to call 2 cold.

The needed conditions for this play to be correct occur very rarely in actual play. Almost every instance I see in both micros and SS of the Hero waiting for the turn to raise was incorrect.

[DMBFan23]

a lot of times people (myself included) also confuse waiting till the turn to protect their hand with waiting for the turn to push a fragile yet potentially substantial (depending on the turn card) edge in equity, in those cases where protecting your hand is impossible.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
"Ah yes, the waiting for the turn misapplication"

What do you mean by the W-F-T-Turn misapplication? How is this mis-applied and what is the correct understanding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say you have AA on the button and the action is capped 5 ways going into the flop (20 SB). Say board comes out 2 7 K but two flush cards that you're not holding.

Huge mistake #1 - Action is checked to you and you check through thinking that even lower PP have the odds to call so you wait until the turn to bet and give long-shot draws the improper odds. This is deadly thinking, giving infinite odds (i.e. a free card) on the flop is NOT protection. You can't protect your hand on the flop, just bet the flop for value. Bet the turn mostly for value as well and perhaps to protect yourself from long draws. But the pot is big enough that you may not be able to protect here.

This may be an exaggeration but I see it time to time. The same thing is true even if we had the example above and we had an EP bettor on the flop. There are many times where we just can't protect our hand and waiting until the turn just throws away equity situations for us, so we just need to bet and raise for value.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
Good post.

To add, keep posting marginal hands and tough decisions. Stop posting quads, boats, royals where you're curious about missing out on value.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is important, it also means stop posting your AA hands please, everyone posts at least 1, but honestly they are the most boring nocontent hand possible

go to your 2nd and bottompair hands, hands with multiple weak draw hands .. these are the hands that seperate breakeven from good winrates

nice post davelin

[colpres]

"The needed conditions for this play to be correct occur very rarely in actual play."

Thanks so much and to other replies as well - I've read the waiting for the turn section to protect my hand in SSHE 30 times at least, and yet found that the times I felt I could actually count on conditions where I could use it were very rare. The check-through on the turn seems to be the most common result of attempting this for me.