Big Blind QJs in poker heaven - Page 2

MichaelD · #11 02-12-2003, 09:29 PM

Huh,

In response to your question...

"Is this a horrible raise?"

Horrible is a bit harsh. Many players make far worse plays at the poker table on a consistent basis. With this being said however, I definitely would not make a habit of raising this hand out of the blinds.

From my perspective, I would only make this play on rare occassion, and only in a game where I was against players I frequently play with so as to get some future value when I raise my big hands from the blinds. I would not make this play at a table of players I hardly ever play against.

In regards to your statement...

"1)It's not a difficult hand to play post-flop when you know you have to show down the winner to drag the pot."

I think the potential for difficulty exists if you flop top pair here. You may very well be against a hand that dominates you, yet depending on the action after the flop, you may still be correct to continue with the hand because the pot may be large enough to allow you to correctly continue. This is part of pot size manipulation and the raise pre-flop contributes significantly to this.

Astroglides third post reveals some pretty good insight as to how this hand likely plays out relative to raising or not raising pre-flop. Also, in Atro's first post, he points out that the value in this hand is in the draw, and you want to get in as cheaply as possible with drawing hands. He then continues to point out, as I alluded to above, your pair strength is not worth a whole lot in this situation. I think these are extremely important points regarding this situation.

Again, I think the only real value of raising in this situation is if you can get some future value from observant opponents.

I am glad it worked out for you.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

hillbilly · #12 02-12-2003, 09:57 PM

hi rick, in my hold-em odds book it's 16% or 5-1 odds (once in six tries) to flop a four flush OR an eight out straight draw with a suited connected starting hand.

Huh · #13 02-12-2003, 10:00 PM

I appreciate everyone's input. As I was watching everyone limp in I thought to myself

"Self, it might be fun to raise here, just to hear everyone groan."

The more and more I thought (as people continued to limp in), I thought about the odds of drawing a flush or str8 draw, and how I don't want to be one of those people who only raises bullets out of the big-blind. I've only done this twice, and won both pots (The first time was in the same game and I flopped a jack and a four-flush and hit trip jacks on the turn). So my fondness for this play is going up. Just wanted to make sure that I'm not being postively reinforced for negative behavior.

Huh [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

PokerBabe(aka) · #14 02-12-2003, 10:34 PM

Hi Huh. This is not the type of hand that I would raise with from either blind under the circumstances you describe. You are often drawing nearly dead with it. LGPG, Babe [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

Clarkmeister · #15 02-13-2003, 03:33 AM

"You are often drawing nearly dead with it"

Come on now Babe, you putting someone on a limped QQ and another player on AXs of your suit? You are being a tad too conservative here methinks.

PokerPrince · #16 02-13-2003, 05:36 AM

I really don't think this is a contaversial play here folks. The deceptive factors alone make this play a crafty one and the hand plays well in multiway pots. As long as you're not the type of player who gets married to top pair with a lot of action I think it's ok.

Rick Nebiolo · #17 02-13-2003, 06:02 AM

I've got to read that Petriv book but I hate the typeface. Perhaps my 25% figure was for draws and made hands indcluding two pair. trips and fulls. Basically, all decent playable hands post flop. Where I got this memory fails me.

~ Rick

hillbilly · #18 02-13-2003, 09:05 AM

i know what you mean, i've had mine over a year and haven't gotten around to giving it the attention that it deserves as it's not an easy read for me either...

you are right... i neglected to factor in two pair, trips, and the like...we can add 2% for two pair and 1.4% for trips

Tommy Angelo · #19 02-13-2003, 10:18 AM

I think the raise is fine even though I would never do it. It strikes me as the play of someone who is diligently trying to win this night, or this week, but not this decade.

Interesting that you don't want to be thought of as someone who only raises from the blind in multiway pots with a big pair. So happens I am one of those types, and I love it. Here's what happens. I raise from the blind and over half the field decides right there that if they don't flop at least a pair, they are out. So the flop comes 2-2-2 and I bet out with my ace-king or ace-queen (I do raise those hands sometimes) and most of the J-10s and and 9-7s muck for one bet looking at a 15 bet pot and growing.

And the times that I DO have the big pair -- which is very often -- maybe it'd be better if the JTs and 9-7s would take a card off, but I'd rather they remain trained not to.

And that's the irony. If I were to raise with QJs, I could in theory cash in on the equity I've earned by only raising big pairs. But that's one of those very very dangerously tempting leaky areas I've found are best kept permanently plugged.

Tommy

PokerBabe(aka) · #20 02-13-2003, 10:34 AM

No, I am not suggesting people are limping with QQ. But, since most players limp with J,Q and A,J and A,xsuited, (and some even limp with JJ) exactly what are you hoping to hit with this J,Q?. Surely not top pair best kicker? And a Q high flush or straight may also not be good in a multiway pot. I would limp in from the sb, but I think raising from the sb here is a mistake. LGPG, Babe [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]