Help please

[BCPVP]

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i've tried to be non-partisan aboput it, but i'm sure the libs will say i'm being a hawk and the cons will accuse me of coddling the enemy or some such nonsense.

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On the contrary, as a conservative, I'd say you've summed up the arguements quite well. I'd also add that pulling out before Iraq can handle itself would be a disgrace to the memories of those who've died and been wounded. I cannot think of a greater injustice to those that have given their lives only to have the whole thing discarded and returned to the way it was. I think we may have a military base somewhere in Iraq, but I also think we will pull out most of the troops once we're sure Iraq isn't going to go right back under Saddam's boot.

Pro-war or anti-war, we cannot pull out before the job is done.

Great post, bholdr

[bholdr]

first off, i aggree that pulling out prematurely would be a mistake.

but, i think the 'pulling out would disgrace the memories of the fallen' argument is kind of circular logic. one could just as easily say 'NOT pulling out of a bad/ unjust war would disgrace the memories of the fallen'. it's like the one sensible thing that John Kerry ever said about Vietnam: 'how do you ask someone to be the last man to die for a mistake?' it's more important to do the right thing for the living than to honor the dead, whatever one may think that is.

personally, i think a permanant base may be a practical and sensible idea, militarily, but i don't think those benifits would outweigh the diplomatic problems/ heightened regional tensions and cost in lives that it may cause. If the iraqis ASK us to stay, however, it's a totally different story...

in the NY times the day after the election, an iraqi man was quoted- he said something like "before the election everybody wanted the americans out, but now that we are governing ourselves, they CAN be here legitamatly- we can ask them to stay"

the democraticly elected government of iraq, under their constitution, in a year or so, will make their own descision, and i will respect it and hope that our troops leave if they ask and stay if they ask.

btw, i just noticed that 'iraqi' is the only word i can think of where a 'u' doesn't follow a 'q'. hmmmm. (<---ignore that)

[CORed]

I would not support an immediate pullout, but I am not optimistic that we will ever "get the job done", if by getting the job done, we mean establishing a stable democratic govenment that will survive for long. I think we need to get the elected government to a point wher they have some chance of surviving, then get out and let them sink or swim. I would love to see them swim, but expect that either civil war, or a military coup, will eventually bring them down. I think we need to try to extricate ourselves in a manner that doesn't look like a complete defeat, but I think it is also entirely possible that there will come a time when we have to admit that the situation is beyond salvage, and leave without having accomplshed our goals. I would love to be wrong about this, but I would also hate to see us waste more lives and end up accomplsing nothing, too.

[bholdr]

well, i'm not terribly optimistic about it either, but iraq DOES have some history with democracy, all those years under british control probably contributed something. I also don't think WE will ever get the job done, but i think the iraqis have a decent shot at it, after they've been trained properly and get the needed experience.

hmmmm. we'll see i geuss.

[andyfox]

"the actions of Ted Kennedy and othe liberals are already costing American lives as they are sending a signal that we might pull out."

What, then, should principled opposition do? Not say anything against a policy because of how it will be seen by our enemies? What if a person thinks that the war in Iraq is making us less safe, that it will lead to more and more American lives being taken in an escalating cycle of terrorism and response: should a person who thinks this be silent?

[Utah]

I believe there can be principled opposition to the war. One might agree with it and one might not. Maybe the best course of action is to speak out loudy.

However, facts are facts regardless of the intentions. Do you believe that the talk of pulling our troops out motivates the insurgents or makes them more docile? Does the talk of pulling out kill U.S. troops?

One might speak out loudly against the war but that speaking out is not cost free and we should recognize the costs. This by no means that one needs to be quiet. Although, it means one should not try to score political points at the expense of our troops.

[BCPVP]

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but, i think the 'pulling out would disgrace the memories of the fallen' argument is kind of circular logic. one could just as easily say 'NOT pulling out of a bad/ unjust war would disgrace the memories of the fallen'. it's like the one sensible thing that John Kerry ever said about Vietnam: 'how do you ask someone to be the last man to die for a mistake?' it's more important to do the right thing for the living than to honor the dead, whatever one may think that is.

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Well, I think if you ask a vet (and I have) whether they'd rather see the job done or if they'd rather leave, they'd beat you. I read an article in NR about an interview with the first maimed soldier to return to duty in Iraq. And he looked forward to it. Why? Ask a returning vet, if you get the chance, whether or not they think it'd be a disgrace to pull out and have Iraq return to what it was. And I'd hope you'd shake their hand and thank them no matter what your opinions on the war are.


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btw, i just noticed that 'iraqi' is the only word i can think of where a 'u' doesn't follow a 'q'. hmmmm.

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Couldn't resist: Qatar and Al Qaeda also. Damn Arabic! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[andyfox]

"Do you believe that the talk of pulling our troops out motivates the insurgents or makes them more docile?"

-Don't know. If they think we'll pull out, might they not just run their operations at a steady sub-optimal rate, reasoning that what will cause us to turn and run is longterm vigilance, rather than short-term spectacularity?

"Does the talk of pulling out kill U.S. troops?"

I know this was the talk during Vietnam. But it was hogwash. The Vietnamese had been fighting for their independence from China and France for years before we took over. They would have continued to fight regardless of what Frhank Church (or Curtis LeMay) said or didn't say.

If we pulled out tomorrow and, presto, there were no more American servicemen in Iraq, we'd certainly have fewer American combat deaths. Whether we'd have fewer American deaths in total, in the long run, is certainly debatable.

[Cyrus]

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Why should the U.S. pull out of Iraq? It's a paper that I'm writing and I have some good thoughts in work but i was wondering what you guys thought. Even if you disagree with pulling out, you can see some reasons for doing it, just as I have to defend the disadvantages of pulling out in my paper.

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For $100 I can give you the complete lowdown on why the US should stay in Iraq.

For $0.20 I can give you the lowdown on why the US should pull out. (Just to cover expenses, you understand.)

[Cpt Spaulding]

If you remember the first Gulf War and what we did to the citizens of Iraq, you should know why we can't pull out now. Back in 91 we told the Kurds to rise up against Saddam and we will have thier backs. Instead we give Saddam permission to fly his helcopters and he used them to gas thousands of kurds. We did nothing. If we leave them now we will only fuel more hatred towards our country. We need to finish what we started and show the rest of the world we have good intentions. Sure it will cost billions of dollars, but to me that is better than losing thousands of lives in terrorist attacks.