Do you alter your strategy in tourny Stud 8/b?

[degenerategambler]

played my first stud 8/b tourny today and played horribly. Just curious how and if others alter their strategy for tourny vs cash ring game play. There seemed to be no way to get around players drawing to the river to hit longshot draws with unplayable hands in a cash game.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

in the later stages of a stud/8 tourney where the blinds are significantly higher, it plays a lot more like regular stud. you don't want to be stuck in a big pot with just a low draw hoping for half the pot and all your chips on the line in a heads up pot.

for the most part, lows shouldn't be played unless they're MONSTER lows in the right circumstance.

just remember the later the tourney is, the less it should play like stud8 and more like stud, unless everybody on the table has ridiculously deep stacks.

[AlanBostick]

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in the later stages of a stud/8 tourney where the blinds are significantly higher, it plays a lot more like regular stud. you don't want to be stuck in a big pot with just a low draw hoping for half the pot and all your chips on the line in a heads up pot.

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I wouldn't say that when the antes (not "blinds") are big compared to stack sizes the game plays more like high-only stud. I would say that starting hands in this situation change value relative to when stacks are deep. In stud-high, for example, if I attacked the bring-in and got reraised, I'd rather have (J J)T than (6 6)5; but in stud/8, if I completed and the bring-in reraised, I'd be a lot happier with the sixes than the jacks.

Part of what you say is true at all stages of a tournament, but then, it's also true for cash games: you should play as much as possible to scoop.

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for the most part, lows shouldn't be played unless they're MONSTER lows in the right circumstance.

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True ... as long as you remember that, when you are contemplating going all in, A-8-4 is a monster in a way that 7-4-2 is not.

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just remember the later the tourney is, the less it should play like stud8 and more like stud, unless everybody on the table has ridiculously deep stacks.

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I look enthusiastically forward to playing against you at the final table.

[AlanBostick]

When the antes and betting limits start to get big compared to players' stacks, playing draws for implied odds loses its leverage. If you expect to go all-in, or put your opponent all-in, on an early betting round, what matters most is your equity in the pot at the time you commit to playing for it.

I strongly recommend that you go to www.twodimes.net and run lots and lots of scenarios. Get a feel for how changing variables slightly changes your pot equity. Which hands play well against which? Which hands do well head-up? Which ones have multi-way value? If you put the raiser on a particular kind of hand, what sort of hand are you getting the right price to defend with?

As your answers become clear, you might also want to look at fourth-street scenarios: How big does your stack have to be before a bad card on fourth changes your mind about committing the rest of your chips?

Get more experience at reading opponents. If you learn to tell the difference in the critical moment between a steal-raise and a powerful hand you will be able to make better calls and laydowns.

Hope this helps.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

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I look enthusiastically forward to playing against you at the final table.

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Heh, I assume you typed this cuz you thought my advice sucked? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

That may be the case, as I've never played in a multitable stud8 tourney before, but the basis of what I typed is right. the main problem with drawing for lows which i didn't point out is that most of the pots in the latter stages aren't going to be multiway, which low draws really like. a lot of the times it'll be a bring-in, then a stealer who'll complete, and you'll be heads up or three handed with a 3 card low vs. a 3 card high with you having a very slim chance at the high, which is why i suggested playing for high hand value is more important than low hand value.

[AlanBostick]

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the main problem with drawing for lows which i didn't point out is that most of the pots in the latter stages aren't going to be multiway, which low draws really like. a lot of the times it'll be a bring-in, then a stealer who'll complete, and you'll be heads up or three handed with a 3 card low vs. a 3 card high with you having a very slim chance at the high, ...

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Could you explain to me clearly precisely how this is different from correct play when stacks are deep, or, for that matter, a cash game?


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... which is why i suggested playing for high hand value is more important than low hand value.

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Playing for high hand value isn't more important than playing for low hand value; playing to scoop is much, much more important than playing for half a pot.

High-only hands can (sometimes) scoop. But they aren't the only kind of hand that can; and they aren't the only kind you should play, even when you are short-stacked.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

maybe i misread something ray zee said? i dunno.

ok, in cash games yes, the same rules apply. but cash stud8 games are usually loose as hell where you can play low draws really aggressively.

but in later stages of a stud8 tourney, the games are a lot tighter where many pots are going to be heads up. attempting to scoop a pot heads up is a lot harder when you're starting with 3 low cards and he already has a foot locked into the high.

even if you do have a monster low, like A34 suited it's going to be tough going against KK9 heads up especially if you paid a big upfront fee for it on 3rd street and you catch bad on 4th or 5th and a huge chunk of your stack is in the middle.

but who knows, like i said, i never played stud8 tourney before.

andy b, ray zee, what say you guys?

[RangerC]

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even if you do have a monster low, like A34 suited it's going to be tough going against KK9 heads up especially if you paid a big upfront fee for it on 3rd street and you catch bad on 4th or 5th and a huge chunk of your stack is in the middle.


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http://twodimes.net/h/?z=562308
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 ac 3c 4c - kh kd 9h
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 4c 3c 210950 210950 289047 3 263446 0 0 0.580
Kd Kh 9h 131083 289047 210950 3 0 0 0 0.420

If you catch bad and your opponent catches good on 4th and 5th, you might have to fold off a good portion of your stack or be forced to go all in with very little. Of course,generally when you catch bad when an opponent catches good, you're going to be in trouble. If the KK9 doesnt improve while the A34 catches 2 babies, the KK9 is in a similar quandry. While hand values definately change in the later stages of a Stud/8 tournament, 3 suited babies with an ace is still a very big hand.

[Andy B]

I stink at tournaments. Maybe some day I'll wise up and stop playing in them. It would be pretty tough to convince me that your A34 suited wasn't worth going all-in with. If you're on a short stack and you get involved with such a hand, it is as if you're all-in, because you're pot-stuck. Once you're all-in, you get to see the rest of the cards for free, and you've got a lot of ways to draw out on one pair.

[FeliciaLee]

I just had a discussion with Steve Badger about this very thing (I'm not name dropping, it's just known that he has a site on Stud 8 tourney play).

Although I won't sit here and bore you with all of the things we went over, I will say that we all three are in agreement that a hand like A34s is not going to get laid down.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
felicialee.net

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I stink at tournaments. Maybe some day I'll wise up and stop playing in them. It would be pretty tough to convince me that your A34 suited wasn't worth going all-in with. If you're on a short stack and you get involved with such a hand, it is as if you're all-in, because you're pot-stuck. Once you're all-in, you get to see the rest of the cards for free, and you've got a lot of ways to draw out on one pair.

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