damn you, clarkmeister

[deception5]

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Not good without the flush. You forgot you were calling the turn because you wanted to fill up. Not because you thought your hand had any value. Check fold the river.

Krishan

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Isn't there some value in check/calling the river when we're against a worse set, 77-99? Or are all of these raising the flop or checking behind on the river?

[marching_on_together]

If you feel you have to call the river bet then betting out is clearly better. However you might be able to find a c/f here given your read. It's disturbing that so many in this thread feel you are trying to push this guy off a hand rather than stop a check through (one consequence of the split?).

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
If you feel you have to call the river bet then betting out is clearly better. However you might be able to find a c/f here given your read. It's disturbing that so many in this thread feel you are trying to push this guy off a hand rather than stop a check through (one consequence of the split?).

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you say absolutely nothing in this post to support your claim that betting is "clearly" better. How about at least a hand range, or some logic behind your reasoning? I would like you to mention a couple of hands in his range that could possibly call our value bet --- this is what you mean when you say you want to stop a check-through, right? your condescension is worse for this forum than people discussing pushing weak hands to fold, IMHO, though I agree with you that isn't happening here at least they give some reasoning.

Here's my reasoning for liking a check/call. We 3bet preflop, and then called a raise on a four straight turn. I think our turn call tightens up our range quite a bit from villains perspective and he's going to think we're on some kind of a draw (boat or flush) or a J-hi straight. the only boat draw we can reasonably have is TT. In other words as soon as that last club hits we have the worst possible hand that villain could put us on. another way to word this is that villain fears us much more than he would if could see our hand.

the point of the clarkmeister bet is usually to get value from hands that we beat that are going to cowardly check behind. However in some circumstances there may be more hands that beat us that check behind than hands we beat that check behind, and in those cases we can often save a bet.

if villain has a J-hi straight here, the only hand he can get value from if he bets is TT

I think if villain is smart he's checking behind straights and Q/J high flushes. This is a lot of bets we save by check/call. The tradeoff is we might miss bets from worse hands that will call our bet but check behind. do such hands exist though??? I submit there are many less like that than there are Jx hands that are going to check behind for us.

[Surfbullet]

The clarkmeister is for when you reach the river with the initiative and your opponent's hand range is wide. You bet to maximize value from his worst hands instead of checking and letting him play nearly correctly by checking behind almost everything you are ahead of.

I think you have a pretty safe c/f vs a TAG on this river.

Surf

edit: and you HAVE to bet the turn.

[MicroBob]

This discussion makes much more sense to me when I go back and see that 1 of the cards is a spade.

For some reason I thought all 5 cards were clubs and I spent the rest of the thread trying to figure out what the hell everyone in this thread was smoking.

[kapw7]

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In other words, this is a spot where villain will call with more hands than he'll bet. Hence the river bet.

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TAGs bet more hands than they call with.
I agree that its unlikely to bluff bet this but it's also unlikely to call with a pair.
If you want to invest 1 bet on this river then I prefer to c/c than b/f
TAGs are probably aware of the Clark play and they might try a bluff raise here (I will definitely try it against a 2p2er not this board tho).

EDIT: I missed that we were raised on the turn here. The only likely hand that we beat is a pair or a smaller set if they haven't made a flush.