Daily Hand Post: two similar QQ hands

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd raise hand 1, and bet again on a non-spade turn. On a spade turn, there's a decent chance you could take a free card if some donk has made their flush and is trying to checkraise it.

I think I'd raise hand 2 as well and again bet a non-spade turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like raising, because the BB could easily 3bet a pair plus a flush draw and force you to make an incorrect fold.

-SmileyEH

[SmileyEH]

For those advocating raising the flop, I think a vast majority of 2/4 players will donkbet non spade turns with an ace. I don't think it gets you to showdown cheaper at all.

-SmileyEH

[PokerSparky]

I just posted my response, and I don't like it already.

I think I'm coming to your side on this one. Raising the turn only costs 0.5 BB more, and we can easily throw away our hand to a three bet.

[private joker]

My first thought was to continue the hand with the backdoor draw, and fold the hand without it. But then I thought, how much does 1 out really change our situation? So now I'm thinking, you know what -- it's ok to fold both hands right there on the flop. Sure, sometimes you're mucking the best hand. But that's fine. A lot of times you're up against an A (including the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) and drawing to 2 outs at best.

It could cost a lot to get to showdown with a payoff hand like second pair, so I think folding here can't be too wrong. I don't think it's worth it to spend 3BBs or more to showdown QQ just because you don't want to get pushed off a big hand by a flush draw. In the long run, you probably make the most by folding.

[/weak-tight advice]

[JoshuaD]

Hand 1 I'm raising on the flop. Hand 2 really sucks. How I play that is really read dependant.

[Stack]

With no reads, I call the first hand and fold the second hand. The presence of MP1 is making these hands difficult.

[Klepton]

hand one is a call, raise any turn, free showdown (unless runner flush)

hand 2 is a raise, check turn, cheap showdown

[Stack]

[ QUOTE ]
hand one is a call, raise any turn, free showdown (unless runner flush)

hand 2 is a raise, check turn, cheap showdown

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the problem here is that we are dealing with THREE other opponents, so it might not go as expected. What do you do if there's a donkbet (on river in your first example or turn in your second one)?

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
My first thought was to continue the hand with the backdoor draw, and fold the hand without it. But then I thought, how much does 1 out really change our situation? So now I'm thinking, you know what -- it's ok to fold both hands right there on the flop. Sure, sometimes you're mucking the best hand. But that's fine. A lot of times you're up against an A (including the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) and drawing to 2 outs at best.

It could cost a lot to get to showdown with a payoff hand like second pair, so I think folding here can't be too wrong. I don't think it's worth it to spend 3BBs or more to showdown QQ just because you don't want to get pushed off a big hand by a flush draw. In the long run, you probably make the most by folding.

[/weak-tight advice]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the above advice, especially given:

1) Hero described the tables as "fairly tight without reads."

2) In each hand, there is a bet into a preflop raiser as well as a call.

3) Whereas the hands contains a flush draw, the hands don't contain much of a str8 draw.

4) Even when we are ahead we may have to dodge up to 10+ outs.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd raise hand 1, and bet again on a non-spade turn. On a spade turn, there's a decent chance you could take a free card if some donk has made their flush and is trying to checkraise it.

I think I'd raise hand 2 as well and again bet a non-spade turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like raising, because the BB could easily 3bet a pair plus a flush draw and force you to make an incorrect fold.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

You should probably look at the flop again.