5-5 FW deep stacks tricky situation

[aggie]

1 limper, bad player raises to 30, solid player ($1650) calls from cuttoff, i call from BB w/ 5-5 and limper calls. I cover everybody

4 players ($125)

Flop 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I lead for $100, fold, fold, solid player raises to $500. He has $1120 left.

Hero?

I don't have much of a read on solid player but he seems to play well (somewhere between taggish and laggish?)....He doesn't know much about me either but may consider me to be a maniac (i'm not sure). He definitely knows i'm aggressive.

The stack sizes are kind of weird here. Sorry if the answer is obvious but just wanted to get some opinions.

[Yeti]

Push.

[fimbulwinter]

against what logical hand range is this anything but a push?

fim

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
against what logical hand range is this anything but a push?

[/ QUOTE ]

6-7 and 8-8 are the only ones.....But i think they are fairly likely in this situation.

[Big_Jim]

Hands we're behind:

67s (4 combos, would he play 67o for a raise? Doubt it.) And it's 2:1 against improving
88 (3 combos) And we're basically drawing dead.

Hands we're ahead of:

44 (3 combos) And he's basically drawing dead
45s (1 combo) drawing basically dead
Overpairs 99-JJ And he has 2 outs
Flush draws (Lots of combos.) 2:1 against him
Flush draw with a pair (89s, A8s) 2:1 against him
Straight flush draw (78s, 68s) 3:2 against him
Bluff: Drawing nearly dead.

His hand range seems really wide on this one, and we are way ahead of the majority of it (feel free to remove any of the hands above that you don't think fit)

Way too many cards that could kill your action/beat you on the turn to do anything but push here, I think, given stack sizes.

After calling his bet, there's $1125 in the pot, and he's getting 2:1 on your push anyway, so go ahead and push.

This is particularly true, since he might think you're a maniac, which vastly increases his calling range.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
against what logical hand range is this anything but a push?

[/ QUOTE ]

6-7 and 8-8 are the only ones.....But i think they are fairly likely in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you think his hand range is strictly 67 and 88?

so he folds A8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 68[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 78[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 89[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 44, 99, and 45?

fim

[Laomedon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
against what logical hand range is this anything but a push?

[/ QUOTE ]

6-7 and 8-8 are the only ones.....But i think they are fairly likely in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

So they're two hands that you're behind, both in the Villain's likely hand range. Wouldn't something like A8s or 45s, also be in that range? I think that there are a whole mess of hands that this Villain could reraise with in this spot that you're ahead of. I probably push in this spot without a specific indication that I'm dead or behind to 67s.

[The Bear]

Looks like a perfect board to put the money in the middle. I push.

[turnipmonster]

if you just call, you extract more value from tenous overpair type hands (99-TT) which he may fold if you raise. problem with that is there are not very many safe turn cards for him, so you may not end up gaining a lot of extra value. also there are not that many tenous overpairs he can have, partifcularly if he is smart enough to repop bad player with the normal range.

I think folding cannot really be discussed meaningfully. if you know that you are beat then fold, otherwise get the money in. I personally would only ever consider folding bottom set in a spot like this.

--turnipmonster

[jrforman]

I think you have to be nearly 100% certain that villain has 88 here to fold...Since that is unlikely given your image/read, I think this is an easy push. Also, you have to take into account he is closing the action here and has position on you, which makes it less likely he has you beat here in my opinion.