Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks

[jason_t]

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Why is ATs a fold from SB...?


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ATs is just not a favorite against most villain's range of hands here.

[brettbrettr]

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Why is ATs a fold from SB...?

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The reason I fold this hand here is becuase the raiser is raising behind a limper, making it much less likely he's raising light. If this were a bigger field, sure, I might take a flier on a hitting something big. If the raise was an opening one from an aggro CO, I'd go ahead and three bet him. You just need to be conscious of who is raising, what positon they're in, and what they're likely to raise with in that spot.

But its close. If there were another limper, I think I'd call. But I'd like one more. Might just be me. The thing you have to be careful of is one error leading to the next. So, even if we concede that calling with ATs here is a mistke, its prob a very, very, small one. *But* if you can't find a fold post-flop when its obvious you're beat you should really just ditch it pre-flop.

[flair1239]

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im check-raising the flop

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On a different board I might consider it. But on this particular board; it is likely the best hand has the second best hand in real bad shape, the 2nd best hand has the worst hand in really bad shape, and the worst hand is simply providing overlay for the inevitable frustrating call down.

I don't mind letting the third guy stick it out, when it is likely he has 4 or less outs.

[flair1239]

Also if you are looking for info, the third guy sometimes gets you off cheap, in a situation where you were already beat anyway. (IE a turn Checkraise, that you do not need to call).

[flair1239]

As for the PF call from the SB. I don't hate it. The Hijack raises lots of hands that we beat if he is aggressive (range AA-77, AKs-A7s, AK-AT, KQs-K9s, KQ-KT, QJs-QTs, JTs,... I would also roll with a couple off suit hands if MP1 was weak).

Also if the BB comes along we have a multi-way pot. Unless I know MP3 is passive pre-flop 5%PFR or under... for example... I am going to play.

With no reads in the 5/10 this is a Hi-jack isolation raise more often than not and you are less likely to be dominated than normal (READ... less likely does not mean unlikely).

[W. Deranged]

My only comment here is that Jason_t's contribution to this thread is nothing short of awesome.

I may well have misplayed this hand but everyone really should realize that Jason_t's line here is basically the only correct way to play this hand.

[callmedonnie]

Forgive me. I was wrong. I now see the light.

[Bob Moss]

Hi punter,

I only read the first few replies and I'm seeing a lot of people wanting to play this hand more aggressively, but I think that's foolish. Against an unknown at 5/10 I'd probably dump this preflop especially since you're out of position. However, since you did call, I think you played the postflop as well as you could. Sometimes I like to bet out on the river if it's any kind of scare card (that is, I don't think he'll raise with a better hand) so he can call with his pocket pair, but I don't think this is the time to do that.

B

[punter11235]

Thanks for answer. I think that suggestes c/c/b line is good but I am still not sure about it.
Its great that I got so many helpful replies. Before posting this I was happy about the way I played it. Now I can see that calling with A10s preflop is not so good and I have some food for thought about c/c/b line (I would never think of it by myself).
Thanks everybody for interesting thread.

Best wishes

[flair1239]

I ran some Pokerstove simulations this weekend.

For the raiser I used the following range:

AA-88, Suited broadways, AK-ATo, KQ-KTo, Axs, K8s and up.

My simulation assumed a weak limper. I gave him a pretty broad range of: any suited, off suit connectors, PP below JJ, Any broadway.

I ran the sim two ways. One just against the aggressive raiser and one against both.

IMO, with a weak limper and an aggressive raiser this is definetly worth a call. In both sims our equity was almost a deadheat with the raiser. After you adjust it to account for his positional advantage, you would still be in OK shape with the poor player in to provide an overlay for you.

However if the limper was a better player with a tighter range, then it makes it less worthwhile.

So for the pre-flop call, I will say it depends on how bad the limper is and how aggressive the raiser is.

The more aggressive the raiser, the more likely I call.

The weaker the limper, the more likely I call.

Completely situational pre-flop play, by no means an automuck.