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  #1  
Old 12-31-2005, 12:55 AM
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Default Better line for flopped bottom 2pair, please!

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($55.47)
Hero ($50.30)
UTG ($39)
UTG+1 ($22.65)
MP1 :#A500AF(Villian)/ ($80.55)
MP2 ($65.05)
MP3 ($141.41)
CO ($133.03)
Button ($49.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 :#A500AF(Villian)/ calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($1.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villian raises to $4</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $3.

At this point, I'm thinking he has a high ace, and I'm a very happy camper.

Turn: ($9.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villian bets $7</font>, Hero calls $7.

The K makes me very nervous, as I that the only hands I'm ahead of is AJ-8

River: ($23.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villian bets $10</font>, Hero calls $10.

This call is "deer-in-the-headlights" call. Plain and simple. I'm pretty sure I'm beat at this point, but click "Call" anyways.


Better line, anyone?


Final Pot: $43.50
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  #2  
Old 12-31-2005, 01:47 AM
TheRempel TheRempel is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 6
Default Re: Better line for flopped bottom 2pair, please!

Does the villain have a habit of limping with strong aces in middle position?

I think the only hand you're going to see here that will beat you is A7, 77 or possibly A5. Is the villain capable of raising the flop with KQ?

If I have a decent read I'm going to try to milk my opponent as much as possible. If I have no read I don't mind 3 betting the flop and ending the hand right there.

In this case, assuming no reads I'm reraising to $12 and calling a push from an average party player. If he smooth calls the flop I push the turn.

I don't understand why you think he has a big ace. His preflop limp typically means something like A2-A9 suited, or A7-ATo. it's also possible that he limped with AA and you got really unlucky, but them's the breaks.
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  #3  
Old 12-31-2005, 02:02 AM
wdeadwyler wdeadwyler is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 172
Default Re: Better line for flopped bottom 2pair, please!

[ QUOTE ]
Does the villain have a habit of limping with strong aces in middle position?

I think the only hand you're going to see here that will beat you is A7, 77 or possibly A5. Is the villain capable of raising the flop with KQ?

If I have a decent read I'm going to try to milk my opponent as much as possible. If I have no read I don't mind 3 betting the flop and ending the hand right there.

In this case, assuming no reads I'm reraising to $12 and calling a push from an average party player. If he smooth calls the flop I push the turn.

I don't understand why you think he has a big ace. His preflop limp typically means something like A2-A9 suited, or A7-ATo. it's also possible that he limped with AA and you got really unlucky, but them's the breaks.

[/ QUOTE ]

3betting the flop is really bad here. It folds out all the hands you are beating, and even if villain gets all in with top pair, he has plenty of outs to catch up, and if you are behind, you are [censored]. I call his flop raise and lead the turn for 2/3 or C/R all in depending on board textures, stack sizes, etc.

On this particular hand I bet the turn for 2/3 pot on the turn and fold to even a minraise.
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  #4  
Old 12-31-2005, 02:56 AM
TheRempel TheRempel is offline
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Default Re: Better line for flopped bottom 2pair, please!

You're giving the average party player wayyy too much credit. Half of the players at this level will call the 3 bet on the flop with middle pair. Against an average player I'm trying to win the pot on the flop since there are too many cards that could hit his hand.
If I have stats on the villain and he pushes, I'm only calling if I have equity the majority of the time. If I don't have stats then I need to make a judgement call.

Leading the turn after smooth calling the flop is about as ridiculous a move as you can make unless you have a very strong read and know it will confuse your opponent. There is 0 difference between leading the turn and 3 betting the flop except that you are effectively giving your opponent a free card.
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  #5  
Old 12-31-2005, 04:01 AM
ajmargarine ajmargarine is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pwning Robby Gordon
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Default Re: Better line for flopped bottom 2pair, please!

I was reviewing some hands today in Pokertracker of some players who I play with quite a bit (at NL100). I was amazed at how many times AK and AQ were limped preflop (and all premiums for that matter). So, I'm not surprised if villian had AK here. That said, you took a passive line but ended up getting good $$$ in on each street and I would be happy. You lost less if you were WB and won a decent amount if your hand held up. Probably not optimal play, but adequate.
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  #6  
Old 12-31-2005, 02:59 PM
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Default Re: Better line for flopped bottom 2pair, please!

I dunno about most folks, but I limp AQ more often than not from early and middle positions. The only AJ calling you is owned by a donk, and when someone with AK calls, half the flops you hit, you are a dead man, the other half, your opponent has nothing and will fold to most any bet.
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  #7  
Old 12-31-2005, 03:41 PM
RED FACE RED FACE is offline
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Posts: 125
Default Re: Better line for flopped bottom 2pair, please!

You could've 3bet that flop and folded to a 4bet but calling is fine as long as your attitude is that you are slowplaying. Villain could have AJ and trying to find out if his kicker is good on the flop-you didn't 3bet so he thinks it's good and continues.

I guess the K on turn shouldn't really scare you since there was no pfr.

Probably the fact that there are a lot of big cards out there scared you more than it should. I understand you going into check-call mode and the rest of the hand looks fine but I wonder if a raise on the turn isn't in order. Villain could have 77 I guess.

When you call the flop and turn it sure doesn't look like you're on a draw so I'm not raising him on the river and that's for sure. Wouldn't he just check behind w AJ?

Raising the turn likely jams him off Q7 and if he's tight just maybe A7.
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  #8  
Old 12-31-2005, 04:28 PM
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Default Re: Better line for flopped bottom 2pair, please!

[ QUOTE ]
You could've 3bet that flop and folded to a 4bet but calling is fine as long as your attitude is that you are slowplaying.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the frame of mind at the time.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the K on turn shouldn't really scare you since there was no pfr.

Probably the fact that there are a lot of big cards out there scared you more than it should.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.



[ QUOTE ]

Raising the turn likely jams him off Q7 and if he's tight just maybe A7.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with that. At $50 Empire (Don't know why it says Party there), I find the tendancy is for players to be more than willing to get all their chips in with 2 pair+ as long as there isn't something brutally obvious like a 4-flush or a pair on the board.


BTW, this particular Villian raised with middle pair. He caught the K on the turn to make a higher 2 pair. (KQ)
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