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  #11  
Old 12-01-2005, 02:09 PM
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Default Re: Getting Value from Aces

your kidding right?

we are playing scared with pocket A's?

we don't want a caller?

i've been playing poker wrong all these years?
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  #12  
Old 12-01-2005, 02:40 PM
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Default Re: Getting Value from Aces

[ QUOTE ]
your kidding right?

we are playing scared with pocket A's?

we don't want a caller?

i've been playing poker wrong all these years?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say we don't want a call at all, I said we want Villain to make a larger call or no call at all. Villain's range here is fairly wide and contains many hands that will not put more money in the pot after the flop unless Hero is beat. It also contains many hands like TT or KQ that, under the right circumstances, could pay Hero off big. If we smooth call, we have no idea which of those hands he has.

Smooth calling may induce him to make an error with a hand like KT on a T-high flop, but if the board comes KT5, Hero may very well be the one to make a costly mistake.

Then there are hands like small pairs that he would almost certainly ditch to a raise pre-flop but would call behind with if Hero smooth calls. There are the hands we need to charge to draw, because once Hero bets the flop, they are not putting in another penny unless they have Hero beat. Against these hands, we win 500 or lose 5000. If we make it 1000 more to call, Villain no longer has the right implied odds to call with this hand, and if he calls anyway, he has made an error in our favor. Now Hero can afford to pay him off when he flops a set, because he won't do it nearly often enough.

There are also hands like KQ that may find a fold if Hero smooth calls and then three-bets or check-raises a Q-high flop. If Hero juices the pot before the flop, KQ may well stick around anyway, and then will have a much harder time getting away from top pair.

Raising AA is not playing scared, it is building a pot in order to maximize profit and minimize reverse implied odds.
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  #13  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: Getting Value from Aces

stevepa posted this:

"This is incorrect. When he calls the extra 480, if he's getting correct odds to call and will only put money in the pot if he hits two pair or better then you don't want him to call. For example, if he has something like 22-88, just calling is probably a huge mistake. You get stacked if he hits a set and get nothing more if he misses. Since he's getting correct odds to call, you don't want him to."

just calling is a huge mistake with 22-88 (all of which are 2 outers)???????????? get nothing more if he misses???? he ponied up the extra 480, correct?

foucalt, i can see an argument for getting player 10 to donate preflop. but their is no guarantee that he is going to call a reraise and a re-reraise. I want at a minimum his 480 going into the pot. Isnt the OP's title "getting value..."? This is pretty basic stuff here if we are talking about betting/playing for value.
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  #14  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:30 PM
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Default Re: Getting Value from Aces

[ QUOTE ]
just calling is a huge mistake with 22-88 (all of which are 2 outers)???????????? get nothing more if he misses???? he ponied up the extra 480, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

He is putting 480 into a pot 1710, so getting about 3.5:1 on an 8.5:1 shot. However, when he makes a set, he will get a big chunk, if not all, of Hero's stack. So with the implied odds he is getting, this is in fact a much more profitable situation for a Villain holding 33 than for a Hero holding AA.
[ QUOTE ]

foucalt, i can see an argument for getting player 10 to donate preflop. but their is no guarantee that he is going to call a reraise and a re-reraise. I want at a minimum his 480 going into the pot. Isnt the OP's title "getting value..."? This is pretty basic stuff here if we are talking about betting/playing for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

480 is chump change. I want Villain's stack, and I want to protect my stack. You are correct that there are hands he will fold to Hero's raise, but most of those are hands that would be getting close to the correct expressed odds and the correct implied odds if we don't raise. Raising also maximizes value against hands that will call and then get it in with top pair on the flop, as I explained before.

You are thinking about this the wrong way. Your goal is not to get little bits of money in the pot no matter what. Your goal is to induce mistakes by your opponent and avoid making mistakes of your own. Raising is the best way to do that.
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  #15  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: Getting Value from Aces

raising is a mistake if he is going to fold.
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  #16  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: Getting Value from Aces

[ QUOTE ]

480 is chump change.

[/ QUOTE ]

480 is 10% of my stack, plus what is already in the pot. How can you think accumulating chips is bad? A reraise most likely induces a fold.
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  #17  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Getting Value from Aces

[ QUOTE ]
raising is a mistake if he is going to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you one of those players who min-raises Aces?

Seriously, I wrote a pretty long post trying to explain this to you, and you ignore all of my arguments and respond, basically, with "nuh-uh"?
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  #18  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:36 PM
stevepa stevepa is offline
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Default Re: Getting Value from Aces

[ QUOTE ]
raising is a mistake if he is going to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree in general because he may lose his stack with top pair. However, if he has a pocket pair and will only continue if he hits a set, then raising is correct even if he will fold. If you call, 7.5/8.5 times you win 480 chips. The other 1/8.5 times, you lose your stack or close to it. 7.5/8.5 *480 - 1.5/8.5 * 5000 = -460 chips. i.e. You lose 460 chips by just calling if he has a pocket pair. I approximated some numbers but the conclusion is still valid.

Steve
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  #19  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:39 PM
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Default Re: Getting Value from Aces

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raising is a mistake if he is going to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree in general because he may lose his stack with top pair. However, if he has a pocket pair and will only continue if he hits a set, then raising is correct even if he will fold. If you call, 7.5/8.5 times you win 480 chips. The other 1/8.5 times, you lose your stack or close to it. 7.5/8.5 *480 - 1.5/8.5 * 5000 = -460 chips. i.e. You lose 460 chips by just calling if he has a pocket pair. I approximated some numbers but the conclusion is still valid.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put, Steve. This is in addition to the fact that raising is also the correct way to ensure we get Villain's stack when he hits with a number of his other possible holdings.
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  #20  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:41 PM
stevepa stevepa is offline
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Default Re: Getting Value from Aces

Quick question for you Foucault. We agree we should raise if he has a pocket pair, but is that your default play? I would often just call because many people will commit their entire stack with a top pair or weak overpair type of hand.

Steve
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