Having trouble beating a home game

[DrakeDerek]

My home game used to be really tight passive. Lately there has been a split in poker strategy. Two guys have become calling stations with the luck of the irish. The other three guys have turned into maniacs. I've kept the same strategy I always have... tight aggressive. Last night when I picked up good cards, I raised but would get at least three callers. (two maniacs and a calling station) I'd follow-up by raising no matter what the flop to see if anyone else hit. Usually one maniac and one calling station would call, or worse, the maniac would re-raise. I must have folded 5 or 6 hands that would have been the best since everyone likes to show cards but me. The few hands that I kept until showdown were beat by the calling stations. At one point I went 50 minutes straight folding hands waiting for good cards. When I finally raised 4X BB with AA I got 4 callers and someone flopped a straight.

What is the best way to play when you have both loose-aggressive and loose-passive in almost every pot. It felt like luck was beating skill, but I'm hoping there's a better way than praying.

Derek

[PumaFilaCook]

My home games are just like this too. I like to limp into more pots at the early stages of the tournament when blinds are still really low. If you are seeing lots of flops with 4 or more players you should not bet out unless you have top pair and always slow play your monsters. With 4 players in a hand, almost always someone has a hand after the flop (or atleast a draw they will play) so dont try and bluff the pot. Of course since you have lots of calling stations you should never try and bluff them.

When the blinds are low try and loosen up more and play more hands. If you are barely playing any hands and then you raise 4xBB with AA and still get callers then your tight image isn't visible to the rest of the table. Preflop raise with premium hands and limp with lots of suited connectors(even 54s) and Ax suited. If you really want to do continuation bets or probe bets after the flop try to do it when there is only 1-2 other players in the hand. If players are betting on the flop and bluffing you out that's okay. Just wait until you have a big hand and you will get paid off.

You should either raise or slow play against the aggressive players and with the passive players dont bet your draws. Just play solid poker for the most part and you should do alright.

Also, find out how much you need to raise preflop to only get a couple callers instead of many. Maybe 6xBB will work? Goodluck.

[TomHimself]

why slowplay monsters against calling stations moron

[ihaveapigyo]

since your opponents starting hand requirements aren't very good, yours don't have to be either.

if this is a loose-aggressive table, you must tighten up your starting hand requirements. if it's a loose-passive table, limp with any marginal hand if you can play post flop generally well.

you want to semi-bluff and bluff less, call more often, and bet for value more. since these players sound very weak, you can play your hands straightforward most of the time.

[EMcWilliams]

A good strategy that I have begun to use in my game is to play hands that will hit a flop in more than one way, giving me really strong drawing hands and marginal made hands. I have added a lot of decent suited kings and queens to my limping reportatoire (sp?). I have found these hands to hit a strong hand like Top Pair or Middle pair and a flush draw, which has a lot of outs and to a certain extent will deceive your opponents who might have noticed you playing very TAG.

[bravos1]

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My home games are just like this too. I like to limp into more pots at the early stages of the tournament when blinds are still really low.

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Good way to damage your starting stack if you don't know what you are doing here. Don't just give blanket advise without some details. Limping in with garbage like A4o just because the blinds are low, is usually a bad idea. You should pick your spots and play good cards, because the blinds have no impact on the other players. If you are getting 6-7 people to the flop, this will not change when the blinds go up to the next level. You should not be playing garbage just because the blinds are low.. a crappy hand is a crappy hand and will most likely be crappy after the flop. I have a friend who plays this way and actually ends up putting himself on tilt more often then not. He gets into limping with crap, then folding to a postflop bet. After time, he feels like the table is trying to run him over and he starts getting more aggressive and tries to pull monster bluffs, etc. He just doesn't understand that the reason he loses 85% of the flops he sees is due to the fact that he frequently plays Ax, Kx, J9o, etc. (often OOP too)
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If you are seeing lots of flops with 4 or more players you should not bet out unless you have top pair and always slow play your monsters.

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LOL.. um wrong and um.. wrong.
1. You should be betting out for many reasons and especially if your hand is likely to win more than it's "fair" share. If you have a hand that will likely win the pot 50% and there are 5 people still in, then you should be betting (and raising) for value. Using your guidlines, I should not bet a hand like KQ(hearts) on a flop of J(heart), Ten(heart), and Rag(non-heart). This is just rediculous and a sure fire way to leave money on the table!

2. Against calling stations and Uber-LAGs, you should not be slowplaying your monsters. This is why they are calling stations. Keep doing this and they might become checking stations... Arg, now that would suck when you are holding a monster.
[ QUOTE ]

With 4 players in a hand, almost always someone has a hand after the flop (or atleast a draw they will play) so dont try and bluff the pot. Of course since you have lots of calling stations you should never try and bluff them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally, something I somewhat agree with... You should NEVER try to bluff multiple calling stations as they will call your bluff bets.. hmm calling stations calling.. weird huh.

Just because 4-5 people are in the pot, does not mean that anyone HAS made a hand. While it is true that the more people in the hand, the better chance that someone has something stronger than you if you play garbage. As stated earlier.. do not play garbage just because the "blinds are low" or because there are already 5 limpers. This does change a bit though if you are in one of the blinds.
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When the blinds are low try and loosen up more and play more hands. If you are barely playing any hands and then you raise 4xBB with AA and still get callers then your tight image isn't visible to the rest of the table. Preflop raise with premium hands and limp with lots of suited connectors(even 54s) and Ax suited. If you really want to do continuation bets or probe bets after the flop try to do it when there is only 1-2 other players in the hand. If players are betting on the flop and bluffing you out that's okay. Just wait until you have a big hand and you will get paid off.

You should either raise or slow play against the aggressive players and with the passive players dont bet your draws. Just play solid poker for the most part and you should do alright.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do not blindly categorize how to play against certain types of players because your cards and position will dictate how you should play so much more than your opponents (there are extreme cases where players do have more impact, but cards and position will still be more important (heads-up is different)). There are many times that you should call an aggressive player. I think my favorite line in this reply is "Do not bet your draws". Are you kidding me? You will lead out with top pair, but not bet your draws? Strong draws are the hands that will make you the most money. Playing "solid poker" means betting AND raising your draws then the situation dictates it.
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Also, find out how much you need to raise preflop to only get a couple callers instead of many. Maybe 6xBB will work? Goodluck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes you'll want a few callers, but other times you'll be happy with everyoone coming on the ride.

My suggestion would be that should should probably continue playing your normal game if it is sound. Most home games are exactly how you describe yours. Just play your game and exploit your opponents weaknesses. You have to realize that these types of players will create a large variance (which sucks!), but in the long run, you should come out even more ahead usually (hopefully [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

[DrakeDerek]

I definitely appreciate the advice. The guys I play are the one's who introduced me to poker. I think my skills have surpassed thiers now because I'm the only one picking up a books (lots of em) and reading everything I can here. Since I normally do choose to play only with good hands, I think the only thing I'll try changing is that if my AKs misses the flop, I won't bet the flop like I normally would. I know that's normally -ev since the maniacs are gonna raise and I'll have to fold, but the calling stations are making that play too risky I think. I'll also try raising 5x or 6x the BB to see how that works. I'll let you know how it goes this week. Game's not til friday night so any further advice would be great. Thank again,

Derek

[sully4321]

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why slowplay monsters against calling stations moron

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good point, but the moron isn't necessary... moron

I sympathize with the problem and have had to face the same situation in my home game. A couple calling stations, LAGs, and two or three who are easy to get off hands. Three words have improved my win rate against these people from about 20% of tourneys to 50% of tourneys, acc. to my records: position, position, position. Not many checkraises from the others, so it's pretty easy to determine what they have when action comes to me. They're generally not very good, either (and I'm only mediocre, really), so I do this little technique that worked wonders last game: stare at their chips, pretending to count them up. I'm not watching their chips at all, though. I watch their body language with my peripheral vision for hand tics, legs, lips, posture, etc. Didn't fail me once last game and helped me pull off a great bluff with 8-2 off (which I showed, by the way, to mess with heads and get future action with a monster). Her body told me she wanted to be pushed off the hand.

I disagree with the player who wrote that you should mostly play the cards and position. I'd say it's 50/50, depending on the other players' styles.

Is betting the flop every time with AK that didn't hit +EV? That runs counter to my experience and what I've read, but again, I'm just mediocre at best.

[jeffseib]

"I've kept the same strategy I always have... tight aggressive."

My guess is that you are not adjusting to playing conditions. Two calling stations and three maniacs in a full game is heaven; in a short handed game it is not too bad either! Concentrate on mid and high suited connectors and sometimes one-gappers in late position, 6 or better pairs, and of course AT+, KQ both suited and unsuited. In late position, add some Q+9+ suited hands. Cold call two bets with these as long as there are already a few callers of the raise before you. Call single bets on flop with minimum of overcards w/ strong redraws if you are getting the proper odds. Play more passively PF and on the flop (your maniacs will bet for you and the calling stations give you the pot odds). Playing passively will also allow you to often end the betting. If you hit, make them pay on the turn and on the river. You will have a *lot* more variance in this game and will need brass balls to stay in hands to the river with not very much. But you can win a lot.

Good luck, you are a very lucky poker player to have a game like that.

Oh, BTW. I am not sure if you play limit or no-limit. My suggestions are for limit hold'eml.