1 steal hand 1 BB hand

[irishpint]

absolute 2/4, 6max, all unknowns.

I have 89s in the BB, 3 other players and the flop comes 8QQ. Are you betting out? What's your play? (I bet the flop, 2 callers. Wasn't sure/stumbled on the turn (a 4) and bet and was raised and paused for a while before folding, which i think was a terrible play)

Another hand button open raises and I 3bet AQo in the SB. Flop comes K high w/ all spades. Your move? (I bet out, he raised, i folded I dont like that line)

[milesdyson]

the first hand brings to mind what i have lately been thinking when it comes to playing these weakish hands out of position.

you're in the big blind, you get a few limpers, so the pot is ~4 small bets by the time we get to a flop.

if you check the flop, there is some chance it's going to get checked through, and an overcard to your pair will fall and you will basically be forced to check and fold to a bet on the turn.

if we bet the flop, why are we betting? we're betting because against these players and the cards they limped, our pair on the paired board is likely to be best. betting our hand on the flop will offer them bad odds to continue with purely overcard outs. our goal is to get a majority of the field to fold to our flop bet. yes, we make money when they call improperly, but we lose money when they slowplay their better hands and we continue betting. so, ideally, we win the pot immediately. the next best case is that someone peels on the flop.

every extra caller to our flop bet is bad for us. if we get one call, our hand could still be best. he could be calling with AT, JT (which has ten outs against us), a pocket pair lower than our 8s, or maybe a backdoor flush draw. he could also be slowplaying a Q, or he could be playing passively with a better 8.

if we get two callers, now our hand starts to look shady. it becomes more likely that someone has a hand better than ours. there is still some chance that if we check and fold we could be folding the best hand, but that chance becomes smaller with every additional flop caller.

all too often these hands end on the turn when we are forced to fold to a raise. luckily, we have the discipline to make this fold. unfortunately, some players play ideally against us by slowplaying on the turn. they will simply call our turn bet and raise the river or bet if we check.

another thing that acts on our side is the fact that many players are really loose passive, and will call a flop bet with a worse hand and check behind with it on the turn. in this case, we bet the flop, get a caller. we check the turn, and he checks behind. we give him a free card (which sucks), but his check tells us that we have the best hand close to 100% of the time. we can then bet the river on good cards, and perhaps get a loose call from him with A high or a low pocket pair.

basically all this rambling is me trying to say that i am considering that in this hand and others like it, two flop callers tells me that my hand is not worth betting again on the turn. of course this depends on any reads i have, which makes the damn game so complicated.

[Aaron W.]

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I have 89s in the BB, 3 other players and the flop comes 8QQ. Are you betting out? What's your play? (I bet the flop, 2 callers. Wasn't sure/stumbled on the turn (a 4) and bet and was raised and paused for a while before folding, which i think was a terrible play)

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you're brand new to the table, since you don't have any reads, I don't mind giving it up. Too often, you have the worst of it. But pay attention to the player who did this. If he's bluff-raising that spot, then he's probably bluffing in many other spots and you should begin to see the patterns.

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Another hand button open raises and I 3bet AQo in the SB. Flop comes K high w/ all spades. Your move? (I bet out, he raised, i folded I dont like that line)

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you didn't have a spade. Again, I don't mind bet-folding. And again, you've got to pay attention to these guys because if they're raising without the hand, they're often raising far too often and you'll see it.

[irishpint]

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I have 89s in the BB, 3 other players and the flop comes 8QQ. Are you betting out? What's your play? (I bet the flop, 2 callers. Wasn't sure/stumbled on the turn (a 4) and bet and was raised and paused for a while before folding, which i think was a terrible play)

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you're brand new to the table, since you don't have any reads, I don't mind giving it up. Too often, you have the worst of it. But pay attention to the player who did this. If he's bluff-raising that spot, then he's probably bluffing in many other spots and you should begin to see the patterns.

[ QUOTE ]
Another hand button open raises and I 3bet AQo in the SB. Flop comes K high w/ all spades. Your move? (I bet out, he raised, i folded I dont like that line)

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you didn't have a spade. Again, I don't mind bet-folding. And again, you've got to pay attention to these guys because if they're raising without the hand, they're often raising far too often and you'll see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

First hand is tough because there are so many overs that can come to our 8. I really dont know what to do. The second hand I dont know about bet/folding since the board is scary and I feel like any 2 is going to raise me here and try to take advantage of me.

[Aaron W.]

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I have 89s in the BB, 3 other players and the flop comes 8QQ. Are you betting out? What's your play? (I bet the flop, 2 callers. Wasn't sure/stumbled on the turn (a 4) and bet and was raised and paused for a while before folding, which i think was a terrible play)

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you're brand new to the table, since you don't have any reads, I don't mind giving it up. Too often, you have the worst of it. But pay attention to the player who did this. If he's bluff-raising that spot, then he's probably bluffing in many other spots and you should begin to see the patterns.

[ QUOTE ]
Another hand button open raises and I 3bet AQo in the SB. Flop comes K high w/ all spades. Your move? (I bet out, he raised, i folded I dont like that line)

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you didn't have a spade. Again, I don't mind bet-folding. And again, you've got to pay attention to these guys because if they're raising without the hand, they're often raising far too often and you'll see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

First hand is tough because there are so many overs that can come to our 8. I really dont know what to do. The second hand I dont know about bet/folding since the board is scary and I feel like any 2 is going to raise me here and try to take advantage of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't imagine that players are tough enough to peel the flop and raise the turn with nothing on a paired board. And as I said, if it happens, he's probably playing fancy with far too many hands. He may also have a better 8 and you're still screwed.

The second hand is a little ego buster. Yeah, he may have any two and is taking advantage of you. So what? Even if he has a lone crap of flush, he's still going to *AUTOMATICALLY* beat you 35% of the time. The times that he doesn't, he could very well have a king and you're drawing to two outs (because you're not happy to see your ace of flush fall). It's just an ugly spot and you're better off just letting it go.

[irishpint]

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I have 89s in the BB, 3 other players and the flop comes 8QQ. Are you betting out? What's your play? (I bet the flop, 2 callers. Wasn't sure/stumbled on the turn (a 4) and bet and was raised and paused for a while before folding, which i think was a terrible play)

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you're brand new to the table, since you don't have any reads, I don't mind giving it up. Too often, you have the worst of it. But pay attention to the player who did this. If he's bluff-raising that spot, then he's probably bluffing in many other spots and you should begin to see the patterns.

[ QUOTE ]
Another hand button open raises and I 3bet AQo in the SB. Flop comes K high w/ all spades. Your move? (I bet out, he raised, i folded I dont like that line)

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you didn't have a spade. Again, I don't mind bet-folding. And again, you've got to pay attention to these guys because if they're raising without the hand, they're often raising far too often and you'll see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

First hand is tough because there are so many overs that can come to our 8. I really dont know what to do. The second hand I dont know about bet/folding since the board is scary and I feel like any 2 is going to raise me here and try to take advantage of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't imagine that players are tough enough to peel the flop and raise the turn with nothing on a paired board. And as I said, if it happens, he's probably playing fancy with far too many hands. He may also have a better 8 and you're still screwed.

The second hand is a little ego buster. Yeah, he may have any two and is taking advantage of you. So what? Even if he has a lone crap of flush, he's still going to *AUTOMATICALLY* beat you 35% of the time. The times that he doesn't, he could very well have a king and you're drawing to two outs (because you're not happy to see your ace of flush fall). It's just an ugly spot and you're better off just letting it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

but c/f the flop is giving up too much? i want to bet/fold and hope to get a fold from him?

[Weatherhead03]

[ QUOTE ]
I have 89s in the BB, 3 other players and the flop comes 8QQ. Are you betting out? What's your play? (I bet the flop, 2 callers. Wasn't sure/stumbled on the turn (a 4) and bet and was raised and paused for a while before folding, which i think was a terrible play)


[/ QUOTE ]

I check the flop. If someone bets behind me I call their bet and checkraise a blank turn. If checked through I lead a blank turn.

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Another hand button open raises and I 3bet AQo in the SB. Flop comes K high w/ all spades. Your move? (I bet out, he raised, i folded I dont like that line)

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Bet/fold is the best line for this flop.

[Aaron W.]

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but c/f the flop is giving up too much? i want to bet/fold and hope to get a fold from him?

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Check-folding does give up a little too much, I think. The pot is now 6 bets big, so you only need him to give up on a steal raise 15% of the time to be making profit.

[Aaron W.]

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but c/f the flop is giving up too much? i want to bet/fold and hope to get a fold from him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-folding does give up a little too much, I think. The pot is now 6 bets big, so you only need him to give up on a steal raise 15% of the time to be making profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking about this a little more. Assuming villain is pretty normal for these stakes, he's not giving up on any hand that contains a spade. But even though there are 3 spades showing, he's still about 35-40% to have a spade in his hand. So unless you know villain is tight enough to worry about folding lower flush cards like T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], I wonder what the chances of you winning this hand with a flop bet are going to be.