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#21
12-09-2005, 01:11 PM
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Re: Curtains Hand #2
[ QUOTE ]
i go against the 'grain' of 2+2ers that say you have to define yer hand preflop or on the flop. why not call 125 and take a turn? you have position. thats a huge factor. i really like how curtains played the hand up to this point. shows a much deeper understanding of post flop play than i gave him credit for. holla [/ QUOTE ] It's obviously easy to just quote raptor, but this is exactly what I would've written. This is a perfect spot to call and gain information on the turn. Similair, but not the same, as what Irieguy was talking about in raptor's post a couple weeks ago with Q9 in the bb. 
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#23
12-09-2005, 01:15 PM
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Re: Curtains Hand #2
[ QUOTE ]
the bet/call/pot numbers are interesting curtains bet 45 then sb raised to 72.5 then curtains called 30 more to be putting in 75, or 2.5 more than sb 72.5+75+15(bb)=162.50, which is what the hand says the pot is...so why did party make curtains pay 75? [/ QUOTE ] converter messed this up somehow action was curtains raises 30 to 45, villian min-raises to 75, curtains calls...
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#24
12-09-2005, 01:25 PM
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Re: Curtains Hand #2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] What would you do if the villian bet another 125 on the turn? Assuming it is below a J. [/ QUOTE ] Instead of asking general questions like this it would be better if you had an opinion to offer yourself. Or to put it another way, why are you asking this question? A reasonable answer to your question would be to say that if villain bets 125 on the turn then curtains will make a decision based on the information available to him, in other words he will play poker. [/ QUOTE ] These aren't my threads. They are curtains'. He said to put up interesting hands. This one is interesting. I'd like to take part only as another person talking about curtains' train of thought, not as somebody saying whether it is right or wrong. Curtains asked me to do this and it is the least I can do for the clinic that watching these HH's is. Personally I'd get as much in on that flop as I could, curtains disagree's...i am assuming he is right, i'd like to know why.
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#25
12-09-2005, 01:29 PM
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Re: Curtains Hand #2
Well think about if you had the 8 or 88 in your hand. You could possibly call this too letting the villain walk right into a trap. I am sure at the 215s, villains know this, so now if the villain doesn't have the 8, and on the turn no A, K, Q, or diamond drop, villain probably checks. HEro can then take down the pot.
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#26
12-09-2005, 01:34 PM
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Re: Curtains Hand #2
[ QUOTE ]
Well think about if you had the 8 or 88 in your hand. You could possibly call this too letting the villain walk right into a trap. I am sure at the 215s, villains know this, so now if the villain doesn't have the 8, and on the turn no A, K, Q, or diamond drop, villain probably checks. HEro can then take down the pot. [/ QUOTE ] I think you're missing some of what I'm saying. My intention with this is very rarely going to be trying to take down the pot on the turn, because it won't often work. You're not likely to be given credit for an 8, because you raised (from EP, if I remember correctly (EDIT: I don't, apparently)) and called a reraise PF. A substantial chunk of his range of hands is still ahead of us on the turn, and because check-bet on the turn looks like a very natural line to try and take them off overs, it's possible that a savvy player can push over you there, forcing you to fold. My intention is to get to the river in a situation where neither of us are very likely to improve and see a cheap showdown.
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#27
12-09-2005, 01:46 PM
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Re: Curtains Hand #2
I don't understand the call on the flop.
Villain is either really behind or ahead. An 8 isn't plausible here as he re-raised you preflop. Possible he sucked you in with a high pair and if that's the case hero is screwed. However, he either can have a middle pair or two high cards as well and if that's the case I like defining the hand here. The turn will just bring more trouble to hero. If a diamond or any of the three high cards come up on the turn hero must fold to a bet. If the the turn is a blank and villain fires another round, do you now give credit to your jacks or muck them?
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#28
12-09-2005, 01:48 PM
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Re: Curtains Hand #2
Hops, answer your own question. Put yourself in villain's shoes. What are you thinking when your opponent flat calls the flop at this point?
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#29
12-09-2005, 01:54 PM
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Re: Curtains Hand #2
Ok, thinking in the mind of the villain..
From an EP raiser, I would put him on powerful cards obviously. Perhaps an AKs. When he calls my flop bet he's obviously not giving me credit for trip 8s, a full house, or completed two pair with the 6; which he shouldn't. He could be on high cards too here, not trying to act weak tight by giving up this flop too soon because he doesnt know if Im on a pair or high cards.
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#30
12-09-2005, 02:31 PM
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Re: Curtains Hand #2
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, thinking in the mind of the villain.. From an EP raiser, I would put him on powerful cards obviously. Perhaps an AKs. When he calls my flop bet he's obviously not giving me credit for trip 8s, a full house, or completed two pair with the 6; which he shouldn't. He could be on high cards too here, not trying to act weak tight by giving up this flop too soon because he doesnt know if Im on a pair or high cards. [/ QUOTE ] I think I'm beginning to understand the thinking behind the call. If hero pushes the flop, the hand is done -- villain will likely call with high pairs and fold with overcards. If hero just calls, he might get villain to put more chips in the pot when he has just overcards. Hero thinks the extra chips villain might put in on the turn outweigh the chance of a scare card hitting. Is there also some consideration given to disguising the action? That is, if an overpair always pushes, then a call becomes easy to read.
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