Ace when you have major KICKER issues

[POKhER]

<font color="green">
So SB is a major loose player, 67/13/1.93 over 150 hands. I can't access my notes due to sites software.

MP was a fairly solid player, He likes to Continuation bet the flop with overcards but thats all i'd seen of him up untill now. PT stats of 25/17/28(Lol yes 28)
</font>
Hero on BB With A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG Limps, <font color="red">MP Raises</font> , Co folds, Button Calls, Hero Calls <font color="orange"> (Flush value, He may not hold ace)</font>, UTG Calls.

Flop:8SB 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4players)
Sb Checks, <font color="red">Hero bets to test the water</font>, UTG folds, MP Raises, SB Calls, hero calls.

<font color="blue">Well alot of you would raise the flop with pair of queens, Also obviously strong aces(AK/AQ/AJ/AT) so i think im either miles ahead(KK/JJ/TT/99) slight ahead of say KQ/QJ/QT and behidn AK/AQ/AJ/AT - See what he does on the turn. </font>

Turn:(7BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Sb checks, Hero Checks, MP bets, SB Calls, Hero Calls


<font color="blue">Ok so he bets, but he was checked to so its pretty standard. My donk bet hasnt seen to have bothered him so i'll call down hoping to spike my 2. Depending on pot size i may fold river, but its getting big now. </font>

River:(10BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Sb checks, hero checks with intention of calling 1back or folding to any raises.


So when playing hands with MAJOR kicker issues, What lines do you take? I felt uncomfortable during this whole hand.

Check/Call river? C/f river(bleh)? bet fold river?

[RunDownHouse]

First, I hope that's 28 hands on villian, because if its a 28AF, you've probably got something like 30 hands on him total, which is pretty much worthless.

In any case, villian is likely to see this as a good flop to continue on, so you can count on him betting almost regardless of holding. Any ace will raise if you lead, as will some queens. Low PPs may fold. This is why I don't like leading at the flop: better hands will always, always pop you, some worse hands may get away dirt cheap, and queens may check behind the turn when they may have tried again.

If you just c/c the flop, aces will bet again, as will some queens some of the time. If you lead again here, you will often get raised by a better hand and worse hands will almost always fold, with the exception of some queens. The type of queens to raise the flop will probably call a bet, though, unless it was specifically a flop raise for free river look. So you always put two in when behind, sometimes get one bet when he is behind, and often fold out a worse hand that may have tried again. So c/c looks good here.

On the river, if you lead you may get raised again. Many better aces will not raise, especially with the protection of the flush. No worse hands will raise you, typically. If you check, aces will bet, a couple queens may bet, and worse hands will almost always check through. So by leading you get called a good portion of the time, get raised when you are behind, and never get raised when you are ahead. If you check, better hands will bet and worse hands will check, usually. Something I've learned: don't take a line that lets your opponent play the river perfectly. Since you plan on putting a bet in anyways, and will almost never get bluff-raised, lead at the pot. Better aces and the flush will let you know you're beaten without seeing showdown, some of those better aces won't raise in any case, and you collect crying calls from some hands some of the time. Most importantly, you don't let your opponents easily play perfect poker, and you don't have to worry about overcalling. FWIW, I'd probably fold the river if villian bet and SB called.

[SnglMaltScotch]

I think this line isn't all that bad. You took the WA/WB line from the get go.

I would check call the river to and hope that he flip over KQ or something.

I usually go either C/C,C/C,C/C or C/C,C/C,B/F.

[Wynton]

Very good analysis, RDH. I agree with it all.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually go either C/C,C/C,C/C or C/C,C/C,B/F.

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason I like b/f on this particular river is that you're protected from better aces (or worse hands) raising even more often than usual by the BD flush hitting. It will keep people honest.

[POKhER]

Just to clarify its 150 hands on the better and his af is 28(Maybe PT has gone psycho?)

These are datamined unfortunatly mostly, but i do have notes just cant access till they return to tables.

So after reading your post RunDownHouse - Your reasoning is great and i agree pretty much(Ok the hand panned out differently to your logical explanation) but i still prefer your line.

Something i seem to be doing alot of is taking likes that let me put money in when behind yet win little when im ahead(bad hands fold, Good hands raise).

My reasoning for this line was i can scoop the pot here and now Vs many hands and i'm likly ahead.

i think Check call the flop, Turn, Then maybe value bet(fold to a raise) the river is best then?

Pretty much WA/WB isn't it?

So heres what my thinking was mid hand:
Im ahead of a fair ammount of hands(i dont whip out a calcultor or pokerstove mid hand obviously :P) so if i bet the worse will fold and the best will raise.

i can go into call down mode(Or he may raise as a bluff) if i pair up or the board pairs up my chances to win improve(Kickers less likly to beat me etc) and 2pair will probably win.

Then i check to him on the river, Now a weak queen or ok hand will probably check behind but a big ace will bet so i can fold or call depending on SBs decision(Hard to beat callers, But betters can bluff respectively).

So thats my mid hand reasoning, i need to improve my reasoning in these hands but i guess its all experience and learning concepts.

[RunDownHouse]

I can't even imagine the behavior that would lead to a 25/17 having a 28AF over more than 100 hands. His range is that of a normal TAG (so you'll be ahead the same amount and behind the same amount) but he never stops putting in bets/raises when strong or he folds immediately when weak. So I think the best line is the same.

That's really crazy though.

[POKhER]

So your happy with Call/Call/Bet-fold yeah?

I think theres been enough discussion for most part so results are in ROC13 below (www.rot13.com copy and paste to decrypt)

ZC(Gur Orggre/Envfre - Ntterffvir GNT) Syvccrq XDb naq ybfg.
FO(Ybbfr thl) Syvccrq DG sbe evirerq 2cnve.

V abgrq ZC nf gb ntterffvir jvgu zvqqyr cnve tbbq xvpxre nf v srry vg jnf. Fb v jnf nurnq hc hagvyy gur evire.

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this line isn't all that bad. You took the WA/WB line from the get go.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify, Hero did not take the classic WA/WB line.

See RunDown's post for an outline of the standard WA/WB line and the thinking behind it.

/mc