6max Chart

[POKhER]

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look yonder, my friends, past the blurry wasteland of preflop charts

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I agree, i simply refer to it when i have KT in middle positon and think... Ohhhhh can i raise?

QJo on the button should been a limp after a few guys!

Meh, I shall now decide for myself.

[milesdyson]

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look yonder, my friends, past the blurry wasteland of preflop charts

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For someone starting out in short handed I think a chart is a good idea. You see too many good full-ring players who go into short handed games and all of a sudden think they should be raising A3o UTG.

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i think it's a shortcut that shows immediate results. i think that struggling with these decisions and making the wrong ones early on helps you develop better as a player. i think it's better long term to not get addicted to a chart. as dmb said, it's just like playing full ring from later position after 4 folds.

in this post: "why can't i limp QJo after 2 limpers according to this chart?"
response: "oh the new chart says you can."
op says: "sweet."

[therockofgibraltar]

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in this post: "why can't i limp QJo after 2 limpers according to this chart?"
response: "oh the new chart says you can."
op says: "sweet."

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[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[POKhER]

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. as dmb said, it's just like playing full ring from later position after 4 folds.

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I see this quoted so much, and i disagree.

Take ten hands, Pick the top 6.

Take 6hands from 6handed game.

Compare them.

Ten handed will have stronger hands, So its not like playing ten max with 4folding IMO(Then add the increase PFR and VPIP and its totally different).

[DMBFan23]

this is called the bunching effect, and it's slightly misstated here. if we got to pick the 6 best regardless of order, they would be better on average, yes. this would include all the times that UTG got AA and MP2 had 84o, for example. But UTG would VP$IP, so this situation wouldn't really translate to 6max. we just want to know the 6 hands that are left after UTG-MP1 all fold. This isn't quite the same, from a combinatorical standpoint, as picking the 6 best hands from a group of 10.

if we if we only look at situations in full ring where the first 4 positions fold, then the fact that supposedly better cards remain in the deck has a very minimal effect on average hand strength.

I wish I could link you, but if you search here and in the archives for "bunching" it has been discussed a lot. It's also discussed in one of Ed's magazine articles on blind play shorthanded, which I will link soon.

good intuition though, getting that concept.

EDIT: Ed Miller on preflop play shorthanded

[krimson]

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I see this quoted so much, and i disagree.

Take ten hands, Pick the top 6.

Take 6hands from 6handed game.

Compare them.

Ten handed will have stronger hands, So its not like playing ten max with 4folding IMO(Then add the increase PFR and VPIP and its totally different).

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If the first 4 players fold in a game. The remaining 6 players each have 2 random cards.
In a 6 handed game, each of the 6 players has 2 random cards.

The bunching effect as described above is extremely minimal. It slightly increases the chances of their being Aces or King in the remaining field, but only very slightly.

Yeah, you can limp and steal the blinds with it. What did you do with QJo in full ring? Probably exactly that.

[POKhER]

I see, Will read article shortly - Just getting donk bet in a QQ hand... Joy. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Says fold QJo with Limpers, Raise CO/Btn with no limpers.

Why the feck we folding QJo with 1-2limpers in CO?!?! This seems odd.

I just folded, Flopped queen but yeah whatever results orientated thinking. I just think folding QJo is absurd, Any one agree?

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you should really start trusting yourself. I isoraise QJo vs a lone limper and call vs two.

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look yonder, my friends, past the blurry wasteland of preflop charts

[/ QUOTE ]
For someone starting out in short handed I think a chart is a good idea. You see too many good full-ring players who go into short handed games and all of a sudden think they should be raising A3o UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]
i think it's a shortcut that shows immediate results. i think that struggling with these decisions and making the wrong ones early on helps you develop better as a player. i think it's better long term to not get addicted to a chart. as dmb said, it's just like playing full ring from later position after 4 folds.

in this post: "why can't i limp QJo after 2 limpers according to this chart?"
response: "oh the new chart says you can."
op says: "sweet."

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great advice. Developing your own chart based on pstove and experience is a very good exercise.