I guess it's time to get it all in -- flop bluff - Page 3

scdavis0 · #21 11-07-2005, 02:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am not making this play against an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's the part that I don't like. There are just way too many fish out there who will call this with a draw, A high, a naked 3, etc.

You never know when villain is going to turn out to be a tricky LAG with T3. His weak flop bet just might have been a deliberate attempt to induce just this type of raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is, against an unknown it is standard. The $8 flop lead in these games USUALLY means I have a weak a two pair, I want to put a bet out there and see what happens. If I was playing a KNOWN quantity, such as someone that I know to be a strong, tricky player, I would just muck.

[ QUOTE ]
this point may have merit, but you also lose your stack when you donk it away aginst a set, two pair or any number of better hands. To me this seems to be a very limited play which may work against one or two opponents, however a good player at the table will see thorugh this and may be able to get into a situation to easily stack you.

[/ QUOTE ]

In no limit I'm trying to win monster pots. I think that the extra 25BB that I'm putting unnecessarily at risk can EASILY be made up for by winning a 200BB+ pot off one of the other players in the game.

Even if they suspect that I'm setting them up for a big value bet, they are still almost powerless against it. How could anyone fold AQ on a Qxx board against me?

#22 11-07-2005, 02:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There are just way too many fish out there who will call this with a draw, A high, a naked 3, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I have a naked three, I am beating you to the pot. If you have a ten or better 3, NH.

djoyce003 · #23 11-07-2005, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You guys would call here with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? Despite having entirely incorrect odds to do so? What is going on here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1330661
pokenum -h kd kh - ac 4c -- tc 3c 3s
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 3s Tc 3c
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd Kh 586 59.19 404 40.81 0 0.00 0.592
Ac 4c 404 40.81 586 59.19 0 0.00 0.408

There is $64 in the pot before your all in. Villain has about 110 left or so. You've gone all in for 194.

He's got to call 110 to win win 170. Which means it is incorrect to fold here with Ac 4c if you turned up your kings and looked at him with them.

Not to mention this is party poker and idiots chase on here.....you are probably likely to get called by something like Kc 4c just as easily...point is that any hand that calls you here is ahead of you, even 7 2 offsuit, and your bet looks EXACTLY like what it is. If you'd play AA this way you are going to get stacked making some stupid looking plays.

scdavis0 · #24 11-07-2005, 03:30 PM

Playing AA this way is stupid? Are you serious?

Should I raise to $45 and fold to a push? Just call the $8 bet in the $50+ pot?

Your point about his odds with Ac 4c are quite valid. It's a razor thin call. If I can have a pure bluff even 5% of the time though you are correct, he should call.

TheWorstPlayer · #25 11-07-2005, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with the raise; just the amount. I agree that the raise is mandatory.

[/ QUOTE ]
You do? It violates my no bluff agreement, so I think it is definitely NOT mandatory. If I had, say, a pair, or ace high, then it wouldn't violate my no bluff agreement since I could have good faith belief that my hand was best. With 4 high or whatever he has (I forget), I cannot bluff here.

Ghazban · #26 11-07-2005, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with the raise; just the amount. I agree that the raise is mandatory.

[/ QUOTE ]
You do? It violates my no bluff agreement, so I think it is definitely NOT mandatory. If I had, say, a pair, or ace high, then it wouldn't violate my no bluff agreement since I could have good faith belief that my hand was best. With 4 high or whatever he has (I forget), I cannot bluff here.

[/ QUOTE ]
So are you folding? I raise just about any two here against most players because they are either trying to price in their club draw or they are trying to see if their puny pocket pair is good because I missed with AK. They almost always fold their pairs (patting themselves on the back for their wise "see where I'm at" probe bet) and call with their draws, then check/fold the turn if they miss (again patting themselves on the back for their wise fold and for not chasing (again) a flush on a paired board). Once in a blue moon, somebody will 3bet it and I can do a nice long gee-its-tough-to-fold-aces here pause and fold. There are only a handful of players in this game that make my decision at any point difficult with a hand like this on a board like this.

TheWorstPlayer · #27 11-07-2005, 03:39 PM

Yes, I just fold. I don't have the best hand and I don't bluff.

scdavis0 · #28 11-07-2005, 03:51 PM

Ghazban, do you ever make an all-in overbet bluff with cards still to come?

I'd say most that post on this board do it absolutely never, which can't be too incorrect. They certainly do make value all-in overbets with cards still to come though. Obviously there is a disconnect there, but they are counting on their opponents being too stupid to realize. Certainly not a bad bet to make.

This is a play that I will make very rarely. Perhaps once every 5k-10k hands. There is nothing quite as shocking as witnessing a player make this play. It is capable of generating tremendous action with your overpair and TPTK hands.

TheWorstPlayer · #29 11-07-2005, 03:54 PM

Well, when your opponents will call all bets, your optimal play is to overbet very strong hands and to fold very weak hands. Hmm... I'm sure this has some bearing on SSNL but I can't quite figure out what it is. Did you by any chance see the thread where the dude called my 3-bet on a monochrome flop when I was the preflop raiser with bottom pair no kicker and none of the flush suit after I had played 12/5 over the previous 100+ hands? At 5/10? I really don't think 'getting action' is a good justification for this ridiculous move you pulled.

scdavis0 · #30 11-07-2005, 03:58 PM

In that case I see a contradiction in this forum. When someone makes a seemingly very very aggressive value bet with something like TPGK and gets a call, he is derided and called "lucky" that his opponent was so horrible.

When someone makes a play which gives some level of credit to his opponent's capability of laying down a hand, he is called horrible and insane, and again, "lucky" if the opponent folds.