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Old 03-28-2005, 03:25 PM
AviD AviD is offline
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Default Prolonged Cold Decked And Losing Sessions? (Much Content, Not Whining)

First, this isn't a bitching post...and honestly, I'm not sure if anything useful will come out of it, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Normally I just pine over these kind of sessions for a short while, and then let them go figuring "that's just poker".

My question is, what is the "breaking point" have a "cold" and losing session? That is to say, at what point do you think it is no longer feasible for you to go without winning in a given session and can then blame either poor, losing, suboptimal, or ineffective play? By "losing" I mean, not winning ANY hands. I do not mean you are "down" for the session. I mean you continue to lose throughout the session either without winning any hands or by winning a few meager hands (say less than 5BBs) and losing far more. By poor/suboptimal/ineffective I mean your strategy is flawed and/or simply incorrect for the given game and given texture.

As an example, this past weekend I went on a 9 hour streak without winning a single hand. This discludes any chopped hands (I think there *may* have been ONE, maybe). Granted I've run cold before, and about 2 weeks ago I went 6 hours without winning a single hand. Nothing new, I've had plenty of cold sessions, but my question is, at what point during a session, do you think one can be CERTAIN they are not winning due to any single factor or set of factors outside of just running cold and/or bad?

In this particular session from this past weekend, I did not feel my play was affected nor do I feel that I was playing too tight. In fact, the game was probably one of the best I've seen (20/40 game at the Borgata) with many pots 6-9 ways for 1-4 bets. Unfortunately, I just did not have many hands to get involved with and when I did, I lost. I adjusted my play to what I felt was accordingly for the texture of the game and relative to my position. There was no stealing pots in this game (once it got 4+ ways) and I didn't really see any "edge" I could have pushed to get more money to come my way. There was seemingly no bluff equity at all when this game was in its "prime" (per my own sentiments of the game's quality).

Normally I just say "Oh well, that does happen and that is poker. Move on, grind on, and eventually it will turn" But is a 9 hour stretch unreasonable? When I'm there, I think its pretty amazing but maintain my composure in this GREAT game and just wait and wait and wait patiently for the cards to turn. I move seats when they open up trying to gain position on existing and newly joining fish but just can't seem to get ahead. Instead I'm drooling for hours on end waiting to get involved.

And yes, in the given game, I know I can loosen my starting hands and YES I did but NO I still didn't have anything even close to 3 gapped suited connectors to play! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

So why am I asking all this? Well I'm asking because I feel like this tends to happen quite a bit when I'm playing live...so much that I am really beginning to think long and hard about my live play, wondering where I might be able to improve. I don't feel like I play overly tight, and I do have extreme patience. I sat in that game for over 20 hours because it was THAT good waiting for a chance to get involved. Granted I did win a few hands here and there after that ugly streak, but still wound up down quite a bit for the session.

So are these just normal days for other players on here or am I special? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Please don't tell me to cut down my sessions unless you feel there is some logical benefit to it. And granted, there certainly can be some benefit to it that I am just not sensing, experiencing, or am oblivious to during my play. I tend to play long sessions and I do not find my play to be affected due to it. As long as a game is good, I will sit until I am either too tired to continue or start making mistakes and realize my play is being affected.

I also suspect that if these are frequent and "normal" for other winning players on here, then I may just not be "noticing" them as much in online play due to the sheer number of hands we go through. And online is my primary play, I tend to play live on weekends here and there to break up the monotony of online play, and also enjoy the benefits of live play overall (although I didn't see much of it this weekend [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Sorry for the length of the post, and please don't consider this to be complaining. I'm more so curious if others go through similar stretches and how often. It seems like I read about live players on here crushing games for 4-5BB/hr and I'm sitting wondering where I am leaving money on the table generally but especially during these cold streaks, because honestly...I'm just not taking that much away from the games. I'm always questioning my game, poker is insanely emotional and mental, but that seems to be greatly magnified during the above described times. And sure, my sample could be small...I've only been playing for about 2 years now...but I am a winning player nonetheless, just not as "winning" as I'd like to be...hell who is, right? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I guess the other alternative is playing for 1-3 hours and leaving "up" for a break, coming back and trying to repeat with a fresh head. But again, I don't feel there has been a significant impact in my play over time and at least in AC, I can't fathom playing for 1-3 hours to leave and sit on a wait list for 2 hours to get on for another 1-3, especially when the game makes you drool in anticipation...it would make me SICK to be sitting on the rail waiting to get BACK in it.

Any thoughts, recommendations, brutal honesty, helpful hints, free coupons to steak and lobster dinners, etc are all greatly appreciated! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #2  
Old 03-28-2005, 04:02 PM
Pocket Trips Pocket Trips is offline
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Default Re: Prolonged Cold Decked And Losing Sessions? (Much Content, Not Whining)

Anyone who does not see any fault in their own game is just not looking hard enough. It may well be that this game was as good as you say it was.. but 20 hour sessions are usually a recipe for disaster. Especially when running cold. I recently had a similar experience in AC.. lost about 30 BB in a 27 hour session... and couldn't figuree out why icouldn't beat this "great" game. Then after a week or two of not playing i was able to look back at that session and realize how many dumb mistakes i made that did not involve hand strategy. I think if you think back on this session you will see many of the same mistakes I made.

1. I played tired- I STARTED the session after being awake 14 hours already that day between going to work and travel time. Add in the fact that i was out partying the night b4 and only got 3 hours of sleep it is amazing to me in hindsight that i was up very early in the sessionm when the table was full of fish.

2 I failed to adjust when the game changed- the fish were VERY plentyfull when i 1st started playing. I went up 35 BB's in 3 hours. However, as soon as the group of freinds that were donating money to the table left, I failed to adjust to the new style the new players brought to the table. The table went from loose-passive to loose-aggressive with 5 people CAPPING BIND preflop and i was still trying to get away with playing junk hands and trying to get lucky flops.

3. I let outside influences keep me playing longer than I should have- I drove down with a friend from work who also plays poker. Instead of getting up and leaving the casino or requesting a table change once i was at a table full of maniacs. I continued to play at this table b/c i enjoyed playing with this person i see everyday but had no clue was a poker player as well. So I let my ego take over b/c i wanted to show what a great player I was and not "wimp out" by changing games to one i could beat.

These are just a few of the MANY mistakes I made that session that had nothing to do with hand strategy. I think if you examine your session you may find similar mistakes made by yourself. Especially playing 20+ hour sessions. You cannot POSSIBLY be as sharp at picking up tells and other signals that are obvious when you are at your best, and the worst part is you don't even realize you are missing these signals and assume you are still playing your best.

hope this helps... I know it did wonders for me when i was honest about the "non-strategy" mistakes I was making during my sessions.

Pocket Trips
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  #3  
Old 03-28-2005, 04:45 PM
MaxPower MaxPower is offline
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Default Re: Prolonged Cold Decked And Losing Sessions? (Much Content, Not Whin

This happens to me all the time as well. There is usually a correlation. The looser and more profitable the game, the crappier hands I am dealt [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I remember a few years ago spending two days at Foxwoods and going 7 hours without winning a hand on two consecutive days. Last time I was at the TAJ, it happened again. I don't play live as much as a lot of people, but I have been through this many many times.

I'm sure it happens online as well, but I don't notice it as much because the hands come much faster and there are more distractions at home.

We have played together a few times and I can't say that playing long sessions affects you negatively. You were running bad both times and you kept your cool.

Given the game you describe I doubt you loss was due to anything by running cold. You probably missed all your draws and had all your good hands cracked. You probably were dealt mostly low offsuit cards with a gap of 2 or more and missed the flop with most of your quality hands.
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  #4  
Old 03-28-2005, 05:18 PM
memphis_aces memphis_aces is offline
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Default Re: Prolonged Cold Decked And Losing Sessions? (Much Content, Not Whin

This happens to me as well. Last time I played 4/8 at the Horseshoe in Tunica I took down a $100 pot with AA on my first hand at the table... I then proceeded to go 5 hours without winning a single hand. It was driving me nuts.... I could NOT win a hand to save my ass. I was getting average to above average cards, but just missing the flops horribly. If I got JJ, the flop came AAK and saw a ton of action. If I got AK the flop was 678 or something. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I moved over to the Gold Strike and stepped down to 3/6 to slow the bleeding. I then just decided to have a good time with it and began offering every dealer a "deal" for thier down. If they could push me 3 winning pots during their 30 minute down, then the third pot was theirs. It got the table laughing and actually got people cheering me on and such... loosened up the table a good bit and provided some nice action. I eventually hit it and pushed a modest 30 pot right back to the dealer. The vibe at the table continued to be great and I won back about half of what I had lost.

This past weekend I was at Goldstrike again and started off a 20 hour session by dumping a rack on the 3/6 table. My play was fairly solid, but I was getting sucked out by these two younger guys at the end of the table. I played solid, raising while I was ahead and folding when I got behind, but these kids were chasing any draw. To me, that's a great table... so I couldn't bring myself to get up. THEN I had "drunk old regular"™ drop down in the seat to my left. Not only was this guy obnoxious (cracking jokes then patting you on the back like you're his buddy as he laughs) but he would straddle my BB EVERY SINGLE TIME.... In addition, if I called he'd raise it to $9. AFter over an hour of this I just got up and left , stuck a rack.

I ended up sitting back down after some dinner and it was a whole different game. There weren't any ATM draw-chasers, but the cards started coming and the table was just soft enough to allow me to get my rack back plus another one and a half on top of that.

I guess I'm just trying to say:
1) It happens to most everyone and
2) It eventually turns around.
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  #5  
Old 03-28-2005, 05:28 PM
AviD AviD is offline
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Default Re: Prolonged Cold Decked And Losing Sessions? (Much Content, Not Whining)

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who does not see any fault in their own game is just not looking hard enough. It may well be that this game was as good as you say it was.. but 20 hour sessions are usually a recipe for disaster. Especially when running cold. I recently had a similar experience in AC.. lost about 30 BB in a 27 hour session... and couldn't figuree out why icouldn't beat this "great" game. Then after a week or two of not playing i was able to look back at that session and realize how many dumb mistakes i made that did not involve hand strategy. I think if you think back on this session you will see many of the same mistakes I made.

1. I played tired- I STARTED the session after being awake 14 hours already that day between going to work and travel time. Add in the fact that i was out partying the night b4 and only got 3 hours of sleep it is amazing to me in hindsight that i was up very early in the sessionm when the table was full of fish.

2 I failed to adjust when the game changed- the fish were VERY plentyfull when i 1st started playing. I went up 35 BB's in 3 hours. However, as soon as the group of freinds that were donating money to the table left, I failed to adjust to the new style the new players brought to the table. The table went from loose-passive to loose-aggressive with 5 people CAPPING BIND preflop and i was still trying to get away with playing junk hands and trying to get lucky flops.

3. I let outside influences keep me playing longer than I should have- I drove down with a friend from work who also plays poker. Instead of getting up and leaving the casino or requesting a table change once i was at a table full of maniacs. I continued to play at this table b/c i enjoyed playing with this person i see everyday but had no clue was a poker player as well. So I let my ego take over b/c i wanted to show what a great player I was and not "wimp out" by changing games to one i could beat.

These are just a few of the MANY mistakes I made that session that had nothing to do with hand strategy. I think if you examine your session you may find similar mistakes made by yourself. Especially playing 20+ hour sessions. You cannot POSSIBLY be as sharp at picking up tells and other signals that are obvious when you are at your best, and the worst part is you don't even realize you are missing these signals and assume you are still playing your best.

hope this helps... I know it did wonders for me when i was honest about the "non-strategy" mistakes I was making during my sessions.

Pocket Trips

[/ QUOTE ]


PT:

Excellent response, and thank you for taking the time to type it all out.

I absolutely agree that no player can be as sharp at 20 hours as they are at the 1st hour. And I'm certain there are some things that I am not seeing that are minorly (at least) and maybe majorly compromising my winrate. But on the same token, I was fully confident I could beat that game and in this specific instance felt like I was just running bad (questioning the normality of it).

As far as adjusting to the table texture and players, this game shifted quite a bit over the course of the day, and I was in full recognition of that throughout my play. In fact I'm in a mental mantra style of play during a session where I'm constantly thinking about how I can get the most out of a given player or set of players whenever I am involved in a hand. The fact of the matter is, I just wasn't involved in a hell of alot of hands this session. I'd imagine most loosen up overly or start playing too many trash hands because they get impatient as a session goes on. And when they are running bad, they loosen up even more. That just wasn't the case, I'm pretty disciplined in my play...so much so that I feel like I'm missing something important that is inherently losing alot of value based on my play and resulting in leaving alot money on the table.

But you have made many valid points that are beneficial to everyone who plays generally, and specifically extended sessions.

I am looking back, have been for the last day or so, and there really weren't many interesting hands I played (really just two in the whole session that really caught my own attention) and I folded a high, VERY high, percentage of my hands. Somewhere in the ballpark of playing 1 hand every 2-3 orbits (?), which is a BIG problem when you are paying time and blinds, and in a game where bluffing/stealing (with nothing) is moot and overly expensive because you are getting called down virtually every time, and you are losing about every hand you enter! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Oh well, I'm guessing it was just another day but I'll continue to evaluate it (and days like it) and see where I could have improved. It's what I'm not seeing that is difficult to improve on.
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  #6  
Old 03-28-2005, 05:31 PM
steamboatin steamboatin is offline
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Default Re: Prolonged Cold Decked And Losing Sessions? (Much Content, Not Whining)

What you describe is not unusual at all. I have had three losing sessions in a row playing live. My record is seven. I usually play 2-5 hours at a session. The last three sessions, have been just like you describe, Good starting hands and the flop missing me completely or flop a set and get beat my a gut shot straight on the river.

I believe it is just the nature of poker. No matter how well you play, sometimes, you are just not going to win.

If I have the math right, you were up thirty plus hours on a few hours of sleep. I think that is insane. I know people play that long and that short on sleep all the time but most people are long term losers at poker.

Normal variance can account for your loss but I have to believe sleep deprivation played it's part as well.
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  #7  
Old 03-28-2005, 05:32 PM
AviD AviD is offline
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Default Re: Prolonged Cold Decked And Losing Sessions? (Much Content, Not Whin

[ QUOTE ]
This happens to me all the time as well. There is usually a correlation. The looser and more profitable the game, the crappier hands I am dealt [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I remember a few years ago spending two days at Foxwoods and going 7 hours without winning a hand on two consecutive days. Last time I was at the TAJ, it happened again. I don't play live as much as a lot of people, but I have been through this many many times.

I'm sure it happens online as well, but I don't notice it as much because the hands come much faster and there are more distractions at home.

We have played together a few times and I can't say that playing long sessions affects you negatively. You were running bad both times and you kept your cool.

Given the game you describe I doubt you loss was due to anything by running cold. You probably missed all your draws and had all your good hands cracked. You probably were dealt mostly low offsuit cards with a gap of 2 or more and missed the flop with most of your quality hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the follow-up MP! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I was running bad those times we played too...I suck! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I didn't want to get into any bad beats but yeah pretty much what you said, not many big hands...virtually all got cracked, missed draws in huge/action/costly pots where I wasn't going anywhere, sets over sets, etc, etc. SSDD. And yeah alot of mid to low OS trash, not many faces at all.

Drop me a line next time you swing down! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
I ran into a couple 2+2ers this past weekend, always good seeing a few...just not at my table! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #8  
Old 03-28-2005, 05:39 PM
AviD AviD is offline
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Default Re: Prolonged Cold Decked And Losing Sessions? (Much Content, Not Whin

[ QUOTE ]
I then just decided to have a good time with it and began offering every dealer a "deal" for thier down. If they could push me 3 winning pots during their 30 minute down, then the third pot was theirs.

[/ QUOTE ]

That will severely cut into your winrate. I don't recommend this at all. And I surely wouldn't be doing this when I'm ahead, nevermind when I'm stuck!

Yer one crazy player! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
But at least ya had some fun.

BTW, old drunk guy straddling, use it to your advantage. If you are willing to push a dealer an entire pot...invest a few bets and play back at the straddler. Start putting the raises on him and see how he reacts. Either he'll shut down or go even crazier. In either case you are either going to see more flops (when he calms down) or have significantly increased your equity those times you hit a hand and can take him for the max (when he gets even crazier).
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Old 03-28-2005, 05:42 PM
AviD AviD is offline
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Default Re: Prolonged Cold Decked And Losing Sessions? (Much Content, Not Whining)

[ QUOTE ]
If I have the math right, you were up thirty plus hours on a few hours of sleep. I think that is insane. I know people play that long and that short on sleep all the time but most people are long term losers at poker.

Normal variance can account for your loss but I have to believe sleep deprivation played it's part as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I was up for about 22 hours. I normally play until I'm tired and get 7+ hours of sleep before returning...which I did get the night before...probably even more than that.

So figure an hour from getting up to the table, a short wait, then a 20 hour session, and up for a short while before bed. I don't think I've pushed 30 hours...most I've sat ever is probably around 24-25 hours.
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  #10  
Old 03-28-2005, 05:58 PM
MaxPower MaxPower is offline
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Default Re: Prolonged Cold Decked And Losing Sessions? (Much Content, Not Whin

I'll be at the Borgata this Friday-Sunday.
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