SNGPT and KS hand range %s

I was fooling around with SNGPT and, for one of my problems, got a calling range of:

22+,A2+,K9o+,K5s+,QTo+,Q9s+,JTo,J8s+,T7s+,97s+,86s +,76s,65s (34%)

This struck me as odd -- I wouldn't have guessed K8o was worse than 65s. I looked them up on the KS list and found K8o at #55 and 65s at #126.

So, I entered a range of 34% and had SNGPT convert it, getting:

22+,A2+,K5o+,K2s+,QTo+,Q8s+,J9s+.

I had always suspected that an ideal pushing range of 30% (or whatever) didn't always correspond to the top 30% of KS ranked hands. But, I had never noticed a case like this (never looked real hard). And, I have never seen it discussed. So, I thought I'd point it out. I don't know if it has any practical consequences.

[tigerite]

Yeah it does, and I've often thought about it myself, the problem is how do you get a definitive list of pushing hands. It's very open to subjective opinions and everyone's may well even be different. So we use the KS one as it's a good basic one which "covers all bases". Plus which it is actually the range you should use (in theory) for SB pushes into a BB, because it's been proven by maths to be that way.

[Mr_J]

I'd guess it's because of hands that will be dominated if called.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd guess it's because of hands that will be dominated if called.

[/ QUOTE ]

pretty much thats how it works. if you were to derive a list based on which hand does best against any 2, that would be quite a bit different, as the opponent wont be calling with any two, only a selected list of hands. therefore, you must modify your push hands. holla

[microbet]

You know the problem that the KS numbers come from? They have to do with how much you can push and have +EV (HU only not necessarily tourney - no ICM) IF you show your cards AND your opponent plays perfectly with that info.

Yes, I know how the KS ranking was generated. So, as I said in my original post, I had always suspected there were differences between top x% for pushing/calling purpsoes and top x% of KS rankings.

But, I was surprised at the extreme case where KS ranked #126 was included in a range and KS ranked #55 was excluded.

[microbet]

ok, np. A lot of people don't get the KS numbers.

[eastbay]

The middle suited connectors are relatively strong against a very strong range, and relatively weak against a broad range.

This may seem confusing at first. Take a simple example:

76s vs AA,KK,QQ 22% (very strong range)
76s vs A2+,K2+,Q2+,22+ 40% (broad range)

KJo vs AA,KK,QQ 18%
KJo vs A2+,K2+,Q2+,22+ 51%

KJo is better against a broader range. 76s is better against a tight range.

76s is not ahead against much but has a reasonable chance to beat even very strong hands with straights or flushes. KJo is ahead a lot of hands to start, but is dominated by a lot of strong hands.

The nature of the KS method is that it ranks strong hands against strong ranges and mid-hands against broad ranges. This is appropriate in many cases but masks some more subtle effects like the strength of a middle suited connector against a strong range.

IMO this just goes to show that any particular ranking is really a limited view of the preflop hands. Their strength is always relative to a situation, and any attempt at a "universal" ranking is going to miss something.

IMO this is important to understand and has practical significance.

eastbay