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Old 10-20-2005, 06:35 AM
Beck Beck is offline
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Default Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

The following situation is fictional, but one I encounter often:

I limp with a suited ace, and when the flop comes, I got 2 people to act before and 2 to act behind me.
I assume that if I make the Nut flush I win the hand (which isn't always so, I know)

The flop gives me a nut flush draw, but no pair.
Early position bets out, 1 folds, hero??

If I call, and the 2 behind me folds, well, I had the odds to call the bet.
If I call, and 2 behind me also calls, I basically made money, since I flush 35% if going all the way, and with 3 people besides me putting a bet in at flop, I would only need 25% win, right?

Or put in another way: For every bet I put in at the flop, as long as 2 other come along, that's a break even play, right?

So what if I try to raise to get a free card?
If they both fold behind me, the early bettor calls, and I get the free card, well that's fine.
If I get 1 behind me and the original bettor to call, then yt's break even.
If they both call behind me, well, then I just pumped my flush draw.

What I'm getting at, when I'm out of position, when should I just call with my flush draw, and when should I raise?

I know, that if the 2 behind me folds, and early bettor 3-bets, then it's a bad play, but isn't that made up for, with the times, Iget free cards, pump my draw, perhaps make a semibluff on the turn taking the pot etc.??

If my scenario is unclear, please let me know, and I'll try to explain my thoughts further.
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Old 10-20-2005, 06:54 AM
WillMagic WillMagic is offline
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Default Re: Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

Raise for value and/or a freecard...

This belongs here.

Will
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Old 10-20-2005, 04:17 PM
Beck Beck is offline
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Default Re: Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

So you would never just call a bet from somebody you had position on, with a nut flush draw on the flop? You would always raise?
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Old 10-20-2005, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

You raise here to get a free card, but also to fold bigger aces. You want to make sure if you hit your Ace you can still win the pot. If you held like 45s on a board with 3 overs, calling would probably be correct.
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Old 10-20-2005, 04:47 PM
Solid_p Solid_p is offline
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Default Re: Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

[ QUOTE ]
You raise here to get a free card, but also to fold bigger aces. You want to make sure if you hit your Ace you can still win the pot. If you held like 45s on a board with 3 overs, calling would probably be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the pot is small, it's better to just call and invite the other in, so you win a larger pot when a flush card hits. In a large pot, raising here is good. You then raise to fold out better aces and increase your equity. If called behind, well then the raise was for value.
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Old 10-20-2005, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

[ QUOTE ]
So you would never just call a bet from somebody you had position on, with a nut flush draw on the flop? You would always raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are not "always" or "never" moves in poker. Sometimes the situation calls for a raise, while others call for just a call.

In the hypo you set out (1 bet, 1 fold, your turn to act with 2 players yet behind you), I like raising for the free card. The original better is 99.9% sure to call your raise, as people who bet on the flop rarely fold to a raise. By raising, you will more than likely get the 2 players behind you to fold, opening the door for taking a free card on the turn if you like.

One exception to this recommendation might be when either the flop is coordinated (7-8-9 for example) or all random low cards (such as 2-5-7). For the low-card flop, depending on the players at the limit you play at, people in later positions will call a bet and a raise with any 2 big cards, figuring that such an "ugly" flop couldn't have helped anyone. So you have to figure out if the players behind you are likely to fold to your raise.
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  #7  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:36 AM
Beck Beck is offline
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Default Re: Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

[ QUOTE ]

One exception to this recommendation might be when either the flop is coordinated (7-8-9 for example) or all random low cards (such as 2-5-7). For the low-card flop, depending on the players at the limit you play at, people in later positions will call a bet and a raise with any 2 big cards, figuring that such an "ugly" flop couldn't have helped anyone. So you have to figure out if the players behind you are likely to fold to your raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

But would it be that terrible if someone behind me called only with overcards?? I mean, as long as 2 people come along (early bettor and late position coldcaller) I should be fine, right?

Normally I do raise in these situations.I was just interested under which conditions I shouldn't raise.
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