KK in BB

Rooger · #1 08-04-2005, 06:04 PM

Standard play, or played terribly? I'm having serious trouble dropping this on the turn, and I think my turn-bet gives me the trouble.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Button ($25.45)
SB ($61.25)
Hero ($50)
UTG ($37.93)
MP ($66.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, Button raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.50, UTG calls $2.50, MP folds.

Flop: ($9.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $8, UTG calls $8, Button folds.

Turn: ($25.75) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $12, UTG is all-in $26.93, Hero calls $14.93.

River: ($52.68) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $52.68

Phogster · #2 08-04-2005, 07:53 PM

You didn't provide your, nor Villain's, table images. Nonetheless, raise more preflop, enuf to make it heads up or take the pot. Raise more on the flop. Turn is hard for me to decide, but I'd check, just to let Villain make the decision, you still have plenty of chances to get your money all in on the river.

=p

djoyce003 · #3 08-04-2005, 08:04 PM

since you chose to play deceptively, I think this is a pretty easy checkraise on the flop. Let button make a continuation bet, then checkraise big, maybe even all in. that is what i'd do here given how you played it preflop.

I would have reraised big preflop because the situation you are in is exactly what i'm looking to avoid, playing KK out of position with an ace on the board.

Rooger · #4 08-05-2005, 09:38 AM

My image is probably TAG - therefore I think a reraise preflop would reveal my hand too much. In that case, I'd be put on AA or KK, and I would probably have a hard time playing an ace-high flop.
PF-raise is normally 4xBB on the table, so I didn't think there'd be other callers.
I lead the flop, due to the 2 diamonds, and 2 other people in the pot - I don't like giving free cards to a possible flush draw.

Turn should probably've been checked, but I feel that's too weak. On the other hand, I can't see many hands I'm ahead of ATM.

fuzzbox · #5 08-05-2005, 09:41 AM

Reraise preflop, or check-raise all in on the flop.

When the A falls and there are two diamonds on the board, its highly likely that UTG has you beat (either with a set or with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img])

Why do you just call preflop and then lead the flop ?

I make it 10 preflop and am looking to get it all in asap on that flop.

fuzzbox · #6 08-05-2005, 09:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My image is probably TAG - therefore I think a reraise preflop would reveal my hand too much. In that case, I'd be put on AA or KK, and I would probably have a hard time playing an ace-high flop.
PF-raise is normally 4xBB on the table, so I didn't think there'd be other callers.
I lead the flop, due to the 2 diamonds, and 2 other people in the pot - I don't like giving free cards to a possible flush draw.

Turn should probably've been checked, but I feel that's too weak. On the other hand, I can't see many hands I'm ahead of ATM.

[/ QUOTE ]

If reraising here reveals your hand too much then you should be more liberally reraising preflop (especially when the raise is from the button).

Either way - it doesnt matter much - if you make it 10 here you are charging them a hefty price to outflop you so even if you always pay them off you will win in the long run. And if they fold, well thats not the worst thing in the world, because then you dont have to play KK out of position in a multi-way pot.

Given how you got there, I check-raise all in on the flop. If the flop is checked around, then I put no further money in when the A turns and there is action.

swolfe · #7 08-05-2005, 09:52 AM

i'd reraise to $12 preflop and open push any flop if i got callers. no reason to mess around. you need to reraise to keep the limp-callers from dogpiling you.

unlucky513 · #8 08-05-2005, 10:09 AM

reraise preflop! isolate the original raiser and fire a 3/4 or pot sized bet on the flop.

since you didn't raise PF, i likely c/r this flop. it looks like he's got AK or AQ.

i'd put your table image aside when playing at party. the average .25/.50 NL player at party doesn't pay attention enough to know you're TAG.

djoyce003 · #9 08-05-2005, 10:15 AM

did you have any reason to think the original preflop raiser wouldn't make a continuation bet? They do almost 100% of the time. I would let him make the bet then checkraise him as originally stated....probably allows you to get a little more in the pot, then take it down. If you aren't going to reraise this preflop you HAVE to checkraise the flop, you chose to play the hand deceptively you have to follow through. You played this more like a typical donk who flops top pair with some crappy random hand, which is probably why people called to begin with.

lange101 · #10 08-05-2005, 10:49 AM

I also don't think that the average .25/.50 knows whether they themselves are TAG or LAG. Anyway, I think that a check raise in this situation sounds like a very good play here. He makes a continuation bet, you raise huge. Once the turn comes, I definitely don't think that leading into it is the best play. AK, AQ, AJ are easy hands for the villain to have here. I would maybe check/call and depending on how he plays it, I might be check folding it.

I have a question to about how someone is supposed to play this given the hero's situation. When he bets the turn, and is reraised all in, it is extremely unlikely that he is ahead here. Does he have to call this all in? It doesn't seem like he is getting good odds to do it if he thinks that he is behind. I think I fold to this reraise all in (if I even bet this turn) but is that too tight or -ev?