AQ OOP vs. unknown

MHarris · #1 11-04-2005, 11:05 AM

My first hand at the table, no stats on villain.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, UTG calls, Button calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, Button calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, Button calls.

River: (6.66 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.66 BB

Spartan1983 · #2 11-04-2005, 11:15 AM

I think that you played it fine. Bet/ fold to a raise might be a more optimal line if your not dead set on seeing a showdown.

spydog · #3 11-04-2005, 12:51 PM

I generally don't fire into 2 players again on the turn with overcards. I'm inclined to check-fold the turn. Sometimes, they will even check thru on the turn and then you can check-call this river.

Redeye · #4 11-04-2005, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I generally don't fire into 2 players again on the turn with overcards. I'm inclined to check-fold the turn. Sometimes, they will even check thru on the turn and then you can check-call this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't do it very often and in this case I agree with you because the OP has no reads. But I think if the two villians are both extremely loose, 50%+ types, then I think betting the turn with big aces on the can be a good idea on a board like this since you are very likely ahead.

Surfbullet · #5 11-04-2005, 01:27 PM

Hey Mike,

While this board is very raggedy, it's also pretty drawless. 45(OESD) makes a pair on the turn, otherwise we'd expect one of your opponents to hold a small pair a pretty good %age of the time. The pot's not that big and we don't have great reason to suspect we are still ahead. I'd check/fold the turn and hope for a free card... keep in mind the risk of domination is pretty strong here as any Ax hand that has paired its kicker will have called.(and these guys love their Ax)

Since we made it to the river I think we have to check-fold here. Your average player at 3/6 is on the passive side, and he's not betting A-hi here very often at all. Indeed, there are virtually no missed draws so we're hoping he has specifically a QJ or KJ-type hand... Cartman did some good work on A-hi OOP on the river vs passive players and found that it was quite incorrect to call with A-hi because they checked behind worse hands far too often.

Another consideration is that this was a multiway pot with you being the aggressor from the SB - players are more likely to give you credit for a real hand and less likely to do bizarrely aggressive things that they might consider in a SB vs BB hand, say.

Surf

Lmn55d · #6 11-04-2005, 01:28 PM

I'd bet the turn 100% of the time. THey're peeling with any overs and Ax. Also 78, 89 etc.

MHarris · #7 11-04-2005, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since we made it to the river I think we have to check-fold here. Your average player at 3/6 is on the passive side, and he's not betting A-hi here very often at all. Indeed, there are virtually no missed draws so we're hoping he has specifically a QJ or KJ-type hand... Cartman did some good work on A-hi OOP on the river vs passive players and found that it was quite incorrect to call with A-hi because they checked behind worse hands far too often.

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This was what I was most concerned with. The decision I made was based on some pretty general assumptions I tend to make regarding unknowns: 1) That they're loose and will peel with all sorts of crap (in this case, KJ, QJ, 98, 87, maybe A7/A5), especially on pretty raggedy boards, and 2) That they're not entirely passive, and that there's a reasonable chance they can be induced to bluff. I'm not sure that these assumptions are enough to play the river this way, especially given the action of the hand. I should probably pay less attention to the second assumption, at least at 3/6, since it's likely to cause me more trouble than it's worth.

[ QUOTE ]
keep in mind the risk of domination is pretty strong here as any Ax hand that has paired its kicker will have called.(and these guys love their Ax)

[/ QUOTE ]

And this.....well, I can't pretend that I gave this enough consideration when I bet the turn.

Thanks man.

BottlesOf · #8 11-04-2005, 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Mike,

While this board is very raggedy, it's also pretty drawless. 45(OESD) makes a pair on the turn, otherwise we'd expect one of your opponents to hold a small pair a pretty good %age of the time. The pot's not that big and we don't have great reason to suspect we are still ahead. I'd check/fold the turn and hope for a free card... keep in mind the risk of domination is pretty strong here as any Ax hand that has paired its kicker will have called.(and these guys love their Ax)

Since we made it to the river I think we have to check-fold here. Your average player at 3/6 is on the passive side, and he's not betting A-hi here very often at all. Indeed, there are virtually no missed draws so we're hoping he has specifically a QJ or KJ-type hand... Cartman did some good work on A-hi OOP on the river vs passive players and found that it was quite incorrect to call with A-hi because they checked behind worse hands far too often.

Another consideration is that this was a multiway pot with you being the aggressor from the SB - players are more likely to give you credit for a real hand and less likely to do bizarrely aggressive things that they might consider in a SB vs BB hand, say.

Surf

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This is all really excellent advice. I would've tried to say the same thing and dont not as good a job.

BottlesOf · #9 11-04-2005, 04:42 PM

I'm pretty sure this is spewing. I'm not saying the bet is never right, but saying it's right 100% seems crazy.

Lmn55d · #10 11-04-2005, 04:47 PM

I'm not saying it's right 100% of the time...I guess my wording wasn't the best. I think it's right against 2 unknown players. Against such players I think you have the best hand here a ton.