QQ can lick my nuts

aK13 · #1 07-17-2005, 06:49 AM

All from today. I had one [censored] of a run.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, Button 3-bets, Hero caps, 1 fold, UTG calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (8.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

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Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB

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Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, MP 3-bets, Button folds, Hero caps, BB folds, MP calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP raises, Hero calls.

River: (13 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero raises, MP 3-bets, Hero caps, MP calls.

Final Pot: 21 BB

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Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, MP calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero calls, MP calls.

River: (11 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero folds, MP folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Harv72b · #2 07-17-2005, 07:26 AM

Hand 1 I think you can safely check/fold the river. Even on a 6-max table, you're not really ahead of much that he might raise from UTG; your only hope is a ridiculously overplayed medium pocket pair, or a similarly overplayed KJ. Barring a read that this opponent is capable of playing that poorly, the river call doesn't seem +EV.

Hand 2 is really player-specific. If he's the kind of guy that would limp first in from the CO with an ace, and/or wouldn't raise the flop with anything less than top pair, then I guess the turn fold is okay. But I'm not convinced yet that he isn't on a misplayed flush draw or aggressively played J, and I'd want to see the river HU.

I wouldn't have capped the river in hand 3. It's just too possible that he turned a straight with 56 and/or rivered the flush. Also very possible that he has a smaller set, but I expect the typical 6max player to raise first in with any pair he's going to play. I'd definitely raise, but just call the river 3-bet.

Hand 4 reeks, but nothing you can do.

I feel your pain. I lost with AA to 72o (yes, really) and A9o tonight. I won't bore you with the details of the other bad beats.

sy_or_bust · #3 07-17-2005, 12:31 PM

1. I don't like the flop bet. I'd much rather check and fold a raise back to me unless I knew UTG would raise my bet loosely. On the river, there is enough chance that UTG holds something like 77-99/KJ/KQ looking for redraw that calling the river at almost 10-1 must be correct.

2. I guess you should call the flop raise getting 13-1 on 3.5-4 outs, but it sucks.

3. Tough one, but looks fine. Free cards not allowed.

4. Need a read on SB's turn bet. This is often a great situation to raise. I don't think calling is very good.

Evan · #4 07-17-2005, 01:52 PM

I'm sort of hung over so I don't feel like reading all of these hands. I am a little disturbed by the two answers to the first one so far. One person advocated check-folding the river and the second said that checking and calling was the best play. You both got that street wrong (which is both easy and the most important one in that hand).

sy_or_bust · #5 07-17-2005, 02:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(which is both easy and the most important one in that hand).

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO bet/fold is pretty obvious but not necessarily best, given the action. You certainly can't be sure without a read on UTG. I'm sure my answer was colored by focusing on the "fold" aspect of check/fold, but it remains a solid option against many player types.

Evan · #6 07-17-2005, 02:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You certainly can't be sure without a read on UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]
When I'm out of position with a hand that may be best and the turn checks through, a lack of certainty leads me to bet, not check.

sy_or_bust · #7 07-17-2005, 02:17 PM

If a typical UTG holds KJ is he more likely to call a bet or bet himself? I don't think it's clear at all. Other hands that can conceivably play this way are KK/KQ/77-TT. KK is at best a wash, KQ raises, TT raises, 77-99 fold. Busted draws won't call, but they might not give up if checked to. I don't necessarily see a value bet - what am I missing?.

My thoughts are, since better hands won't fold, this boils down to the standard read on whether a player will pay off with a weaker hand or bet with a weaker hand. If I were UTG with the above range, Hero would be correct to check to me.

crunchy1 · #8 07-17-2005, 02:22 PM

I think you could've bet/folded the turn in the first two hands - though I'm likely skewed after seeing the turn actions.

I think the second two hands just seem unfortunate.

Evan · #9 07-17-2005, 02:24 PM

KJ, 77 and similar hands call some proportion of the time that could be well-approximated by 'always'. People like to call, I like to let them.*

*A phrase stolen from Clark

Harv72b · #10 07-17-2005, 09:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sort of hung over so I don't feel like reading all of these hands. I am a little disturbed by the two answers to the first one so far. One person advocated check-folding the river and the second said that checking and calling was the best play. You both got that street wrong (which is both easy and the most important one in that hand).

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously like bet/fold here, but really...how many times is Hero best here, and how big is the pot? It's possible that villian raised with a smaller pocket pair, both preflop from UTG and then on the possible scare card ace on the flop, but I think it's an exceedingly rare player in SS who is capable of making a move like that (at least, on purpose). It's possible that villian has KJ & raised with second pair and maybe a backdoor draw to the nut flush; again, I don't think there are a whole lot of players at these limits who are capable of that play. It seems like the vast majority of the time, villian is actually holding a weak to middling ace and got scared when Hero called his flop raise after capping it preflop, expecting a turn c/r from AA or AK.

With the pot only sitting at 8 BBs on the river, I just don't think it's worth putting another bet into this hand, especially since both the possible flush draw and the KQ gutshot have now come in. Betting the river seems like the worst option of all, as I think that Hero gets called by a worse hand something approaching zero percent of the time, and gets a better hand to fold a similar percentage; in that regard, I think check/call is preferable to bet/fold as you at least give a hand like KJ or an underpair one more chance to bluff at it. But I still like check/fold here against an uknown or even mildly predictable opponent.