5 hands - Common WTSD% Theme

MarkD · #1 07-05-2005, 01:28 AM

Here are five hands from my session tonight. I do not like posts with lots of hands in them but these five all have a common theme and they relate to my other current post relating to WTSD%. I am trying to look for spots where I might change my default play to enable me to get to showdowns instead of folding earlier. This is an experiment and these hands are spots that I might have played differently a few days ago. Sorry about having so many hands grouped together, but I don’t think they are different and they have similar themes.

Hand 1 (10 handed):
Villain in this hand is 11.8/6.85/2.23/336 (VPIP/PFR/AF/Hands). Although these number were on my screen I did not look at them during this hand and thus I assumed my opponent was just a typical party over-aggressive player. I include the stats for the sake of completeness.

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
MP1 calls, MP3 raises, Hero calls, MP1 calls.
Flop: (6.66 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.33 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.33 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.33 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 (7 handed):
Villian in this hand was 19.8/15.44/1.36/298.

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: (4.83 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.83 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 5.83 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 3 (10 handed):
Villian is the same as in previous hand.

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (4.83 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.83 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6.83 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 4 (9 handed):
Villian is 16.8/12.28/2.11/969 with an Attempt to Steal 25.86 (this stat must take a while to converge though).

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Flop: (6.66 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.33 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (5.33 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 5.33 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 5 (8 handed):
Villian in this hand is 8.5/2.13/0.00/47 – meaningless really, but chances are he is tighter than your normal 15/30 donk.

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: (4.66 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.33 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.33 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 5.33 BB

All comments welcome and appreciated.

wgarvin · #2 07-05-2005, 07:23 AM

1: Dubious call down against this type of player. He probably does not expect you to fold R, in which case you are beat.
2: Bet turn and call a raise. Best 2nd pair is a strong holding in the steal zone.
3: Bet turn and fold to a raise. Why give a free card?
4: Bet river.
5:Bet turn and call a raise. Your 3BB loss where he has a J will be easily outweighed by the times he pays you off with a worse hand - or bluffs.
I like the check behind on the turn with a goodish hand, sometimes, but not on these ones.
Just a few thoughts ....

MarkD · #3 07-05-2005, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1: Dubious call down against this type of player. He probably does not expect you to fold R, in which case you are beat.
2: Bet turn and call a raise. Best 2nd pair is a strong holding in the steal zone.
3: Bet turn and fold to a raise. Why give a free card?
4: Bet river.
5:Bet turn and call a raise. Your 3BB loss where he has a J will be easily outweighed by the times he pays you off with a worse hand - or bluffs.
I like the check behind on the turn with a goodish hand, sometimes, but not on these ones.
Just a few thoughts ....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just about what I would typically do.

1. Remember, I didn't know these stats at the time and the WTSD thread is very much on my mind atm. I'm trying to figure out where people are going to showdown that I am not.

2. If he has a king and I bet the turn and call him down after he raises (and he will almost always raise the turn with a king) I am getting outplayed. If I check and call there are only 6 cards that I am afraid of (that might not even be a problem if he has undercards) whereas I may induce him to bet a lot of worse hands than mine (88, etc.)

I'm really not sure this hand is a simple turn bet - that is what I have been doing in the past though so /shrug. I post because I am unsure.

3: Bet turn and fold to a raise. Why give a free card?

This is horrible. You realize I have a gutshot on the turn now right? If I get check raised here I can't fold so getting check raised is very expensive. I actually think this is a good turn check. I may get a bet out of hands that would have folded if I had bet, I get a cheap chance to improve if I am currently behind and if I am ahead my opponent can't have "that" many outs. I think it's close between betting and checking behind, but betting and folding is certainly wrong. If I bet I am forced to call a check raise and then I probably fold the river. I think I already fold the river too much and don't showdown enough. Checking behind here fixes all of those issues.

4. I was going to bet any non-club. His hand looks too much like a flush draw and the pot is small so I won't get a lot of lose calls. I do think it's close and I usually bet here. I was trying to induce a bluff.

5:Bet turn and call a raise. Your 3BB loss where he has a J will be easily outweighed by the times he pays you off with a worse hand - or bluffs.

I disagree with this and think this may be a good spot for me to be checking behind. I posted because I'm not sure obviously.

DpR · #4 07-05-2005, 10:56 PM

Hand 1 I fold preflop to that player. Jsut becasue you are in a tough spot out of poisition. If it were heads up I might like the play more - but just not a great spot. I think I check fold the flop.

Hand 2 you have to bet the turn. Don't want to give a free card there. No reason to think he has a K.

Hand 3 - eww, this is not a good trend. You can't be giving free cards here. Make this play with AQ here not JJ.

Hand 4 is fine.

Hand 5: eww again this is bad. Bet turn. People are not getting to higher s.d. numbers by playing scared. You make these turn checks when you have Ace high.

Jeff W · #5 07-05-2005, 11:33 PM

I think that the attempts to get to showdown cheaply were misguided in all 5 hands.

Check/raise the flop in hand 1. I'd fold the river in 1 even against party 15 typicals.

Bet the turn in hand 2,3 and 5.

In hand 4, I'd bet-fold the river. More likely he has a lower pocket pair than a flush.

MarkD · #6 07-05-2005, 11:50 PM

Thanks for the check up boys. I like Jeff's terminology here - the plays were misguided. None of them would be standard plays for me and I guess they are all wrong. I will have to revert back to my normal game and look for other possible spots that I am not getting to showdown when I should.

I appreciate the slap in the face. It's why I posted.