AQo vs way too big a field, man this sucks.

[W. Deranged]

I do not like this argument.

I am a strong advocate of raising certain overcards; namely, those that you stand to increase your chance of winning if you hit your card.

If you look in this week's Jake The Snake digest, I put up a whole crazy poll about a bunch of weak overcard hands where I think raising is a viable option.

Here I don't think it helps. We are in a big field and may get three bet if we raise. But, most importantly, are outs are pretty clean . If we hit an A or Q we are much heavier favorites to win than if our cards were QJ or something like that. Given, we may encourage others out who have small pairs and may redraw against us or may dirty our A or Q outs, but this is not nearly as big a consideration as it would be if our overcards were weaker.

Also, note that by not raising on the flop, we actually increase our ability to protect our hand on the turn when we do hit it there. If we raise and it is checked to us on the turn after we hit an A or Q, we may only get one bet in. If the bettor in front of us instead continues to bet the turn, we may get a raise in, which has excellent value in terms of hand protection.

So, my basic point is that I much prefer to raise weak overcards on the flop (given that you have some clear reason to continue being part of the hand... such as combo draws) than strong ones, because strong ones don't need the tactical help.

Tactical raises have a price, and it is important to recognize that you often stand to gain more from them in situations where you are weaker than when you are stronger.


As for folding to a flop three-bet, that is very bad. Putting two bets in on the flop and folding a third get a trillion to one is bad poker. Sure, we may be drawing thin, but we will have live outs often enough that folding would be quite weak in my opinion.

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
As for folding to a flop three-bet, that is very bad. Putting two bets in on the flop and folding a third get a trillion to one is bad poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said this is player dependent. But calling a bet on the flop when you couldn't pick a card out of the deck to give yourself the best hand is bad poker.

[ QUOTE ]
I am a strong advocate of raising certain overcards; namely, those that you stand to increase your chance of winning if you hit your card.


[/ QUOTE ]
Anytime you can reduce a field of 8 by several opponents will increase your chances of winning. Let us not forget that with a raise, we will often see both the turn and river. This also increases your chances of winning.

-ropey

[brettbrettr]

Ropey,

What about the pre-flop and flop action suggests to you that you're narrowing this field and/or getting free cards?

Your first thought is weak-tight.

brett

[W. Deranged]

As a follow-up:

Generally, it is much better to save the "raise and fold to a three-bet" thinking to the turn when:

1. The size of the bets double
2. You have fewer future opportunities to improve your hand.
1+2=3. You have lower implied odds.
4. The hands of your opponents are more clearly defined.

[callmedonnie]

Thanks for all the feedback on this one. With better position the flop raise would make sense as it might buy the button. Here buying the button was virtually impossible. Forcing out players to strengthen my draw was a consideration also. As noted, at this table this wasn't going to work but also as noted, I was new to the table.

The turn check raise I'm alright with. One player put a single bet in and folded to the raise, and I got HU for river. Luckily the river saved my from bottom two pair.

[jskills]

Check / call the river. I'd be surprised if CO had a 7 in his hand, but then again what else was he betting at on the flop?

[BWebb]

Don't like the flop raise. You are not going to clean up your overcard outs because you are either reverse dominated or they are good already. Getting 18-1, a call is justified on your 2.5 outer.

Turn, a checkraise won't really limit the field, so I bet.

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
What about the pre-flop and flop action suggests to you that you're narrowing this field and/or getting free cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Make no mistake, I would not have played the hand this way...but was merely suggesting that there are times when this type of raise is a good play. In a wild and loose game, you are usually just throwing away a small bet by playing the hand this way.

-ropey

[brettbrettr]

I agree. But as a point of procedure you'll find numerous posts where raising this flop *is* the right move. I think its best to resrtrict our comments in a given thread to the situation at hand or the posts get sidetracked too easily and some people can't distinguish the good advice in this situation from the advice of what to do in a different one.