Brand Spankin' New Glock 19

[djj6835]

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What am i missing?


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The second ammendment didn't give people the right to carry arms. The concealed carry laws did, and they are state laws. This is what we were discussing.

Times also change and so can the constition. There is a big difference between what the 2nd ammendment meant back in 1800 and what it means today. The key portion of the second ammendment isn't the part regarding the right to bear arms, but the portion regarding a well regulated militia being necessary to secure a free state. We would all still enjoy the same freedoms withouth a concealed carry law so the second ammendment does not apply in this situation.

In addition to that, giving people the right to carry guns without any sort of training is not the way to form a well regulated militia.

[BCPVP]

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The second ammendment didn't give people the right to carry arms. The concealed carry laws did, and they are state laws.

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Laws don't give you rights. The constitution doesn't give you rights.

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We would all still enjoy the same freedoms withouth a concealed carry law so the second ammendment does not apply in this situation.

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No. My right to self-defense is severly infringed upon if the state bans me from using an effective method of self-defense. How would you feel if the state said "From now on, the only condoms you can use will have holes in them."

[djj6835]

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No. My right to self-defense is severly infringed upon if the state bans me from using an effective method of self-defense. How would you feel if the state said "From now on, the only condoms you can use will have holes in them."



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This is a horrible analogy. Is there some inherent harm from using condoms without holes that isn't present in condoms with holes. If not, then this analogy doesn't work.

[BCPVP]

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No. My right to self-defense is severly infringed upon if the state bans me from using an effective method of self-defense. How would you feel if the state said "From now on, the only condoms you can use will have holes in them."



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This is a horrible analogy. Is there some inherent harm from using condoms without holes that isn't present in condoms with holes. If not, then this analogy doesn't work.

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You're missing the point. What right does the state have to tell you what type of protection you can use, be it a gun or a condom? Especially when your life can depend on it.

Myth: Private ownership of guns
is not effective in preventing crime.

Fact: Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times - more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds.2 Of these instances, 15.6% of the people using a firearm defensively stated that they "almost certainly" saved their lives by doing so.

Firearms are used 60 times more often to protect lives than to take lives.

Fact: In 83.5% (2,087,500) of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first, proving that guns are very well suited for self-defense.

Fact: Of the 2,500,000 times citizens use guns to defend themselves, 92% merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers.

Fact: Less than 8% of the time does a citizen wound his or her attacker, and in less than one in a thousand instances is the attacker killed.3

Fact: For every accidental death, suicide or homicide with a firearm, 10 lives are saved through defensive use.

Fact: When using guns in self-defense4:
- 83% of robbery victims were not injured
- 88% of assault victims were not hurt
- 76% of all self-defense use of guns never involve firing a single shot

Fact: After the implementation of Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibiting handgun possession for protection, the "breaking and entering” crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the American rate.5


Myth: Only police should have guns.

Fact: "...most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."6

Fact: 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person.7

Fact: Seems the police have trouble keeping them. Hundreds of firearms are missing from the FBI and 449 of them have been involved in crimes.8

Fact: Anyone who saw the helplessness of the L.A. Police Department during the 1992 King Riots knows that they need guns to defend themselves.





Myth: You are more likely to be injured or killed
using a gun for self-defense.

Fact: You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were:9
Resisting with a gun 6%
Did nothing at all 25%
Resisted with a knife 40%
Non-violent resistance 45%

Fact: In 1966, the city of Orlando responded to a wave of sexual assaults by offering firearms training classes to women. The number of rapes dropped by nearly 90%.

Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.33

Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because they fear being shot.34

Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are "hot burglaries."35 By contrast, the U.S., with laxer restrictions, has a "hot burglary" rate of only 13%.36

Fact: Washington D.C., has banned gun ownership and has a murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is not regulated, and the murder rate is a mere 1.6 per 100,000.37

Fact: 26% of all retail businesses report keeping a gun on the premises for crime control.38

Fact: In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year.39

Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following40:

- 74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."

- 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

Myth: The police are our protection, and people don't need guns.

Fact: Tell that to 18,209 murder victims, 497,950 robbery victims, and 96,122 rape victims that the police could not help.71

Fact: The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: `[C]ourts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.' Well, except for politicians that receive taxpayer-financed bodyguards.

Fact: There are not enough police to protect everyone. Currently, there are about 150,000 police officers on duty at any one time.72

- This is on-duty police. This includes desk clerks, command sergeants, etc.
- far fewer than 150,000 cops are cruising your neighborhood.
- There are approximately 271,933,702 people living in the United States.73

- Thus there is only one on-duty cop for every 1,813 citizens!

Fact: The United States Department of Justice found that, in 1989, there were 168,881 crimes of violence for which police had not responded within 1 hour.

Fact: 95% of the time police arrive too late to prevent a crime or arrest the suspect.74

Fact: In over 90% of U.S. cities, technology does not give police dispatchers the location of a cellular telephone caller75, making police protection nearly impossible for travelers.

Fact: 75% of protective/restraining orders are violated and police often won't enforce them unless they witness the violation.76

[ptmusic]

Sources?

[BCPVP]

Dig back about a thousand pages; he's quoting from some website he posted. I don't know why he's wasting his time.

[renodoc]

DJJ, sometimes I tend to just "agree to disagree" with people on issues. Abortion and the Death Penalty are examples.

On this one, you just seem to have a real lack of understanding of our constitution, natural law, and the role of guns in our society.

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The second ammendment didn't give people the right to carry arms. The concealed carry laws did, and they are state laws. This is what we were discussing.

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Well, actually you are correct. Sort of. As other posters have pointed out, the right to self defense is not something that any government can grant or remove. It is one of those rights that have been "endowed by our creator" etc.

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Times also change and so can the constition.

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Yes, the constitution can and has been amended many times in the past. This is how it can change. I get the feeling that you are more of the "judicial activist" kind of guy.



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In addition to that, giving people the right to carry guns without any sort of training is not the way to form a well regulated militia.

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Most states with shall issue laws require some training.

Are you in agreement that the militia consists of all able-bodied who can defend the country (i.e., not just the "naitonal guard"?)


Finally, the number of incidents where the mere presence of a gun by the defender thwarted an attack is huge but not easily documented. Statistics abound showing that the number of CCW permit holders who commit a crime involving a gun are miniscule. FBI interviews of convicted felons suggest that criminals do indeed think about whether their potential victims are armed and they may change their criminal behavior accordingly. States with concealed carry laws continue to show a decrease in the rate of violent crime.

All of this information has been presented to you throughout this thread yet you continue to live in a state of denial or ignorance. I don't see why.