Saved by God? - Page 6

spaminator101 · #51 09-02-2005, 06:59 PM

I really like how you put that.
I wish i could get my thoughts over to someone like that.

#52 09-02-2005, 07:39 PM

Not Ready & Spaminator101, Thanks for taking the time and effort to try to explain all this to me. I guess I understand where you stand now. I'm probably still a little sketchy on it but I think I'm close enough to understanding your position to leave it at that. If it's not too personal, would you mind explaining where and when you were exposed and decided to believe in this faith? I'll understand if you'd rather not.

Was it from your parents since birth? Did you seek this out as adults? I'm just curious. And just so that you don't think I'm trying to underhandedly get at something, I'll be upfront with you right here. I don't personally believe in this stuff, find it almost impossible to buy into and am curious what makes you and I different from each other in this regard. I'm not at all heated about this in some adversarial way or anything, though.

spaminator101 · #53 09-02-2005, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not Ready & Spaminator101, Thanks for taking the time and effort to try to explain all this to me. I guess I understand where you stand now. I'm probably still a little sketchy on it but I think I'm close enough to understanding your position to leave it at that. If it's not too personal, would you mind explaining where and when you were exposed and decided to believe in this faith? I'll understand if you'd rather not.

Was it from your parents since birth? Did you seek this out as adults? I'm just curious. And just so that you don't think I'm trying to underhandedly get at something, I'll be upfront with you right here. I don't personally believe in this stuff, find it almost impossible to buy into and am curious what makes you and I different from each other in this regard. I'm not at all heated about this in some adversarial way or anything, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, i was exposed to this when i was in 4th grade and started beleiving it in 6th grade. I admit I do not like this. I do not like that God just chooses who He saves, however I still beleive in it.

I beleive that people don't beleive this because they try to bend scripture to make it say what they want. Thats just my oppinion and I'm not saying that your a bad person for doing that. Oh well thats pretty much it.

NotReady · #54 09-02-2005, 08:15 PM

When I was about 12 I told my best friend I didn't believe in God. As a good Lutheran he was properly shocked. I don't remember my reasoning at the time but probably had to do with bad explanations of Who God is. When I was between 15 and 17 I learned about predestination. This totally confirmed me in my atheism. If God elects who is saved, it doesn't matter what I do. So what most people think in reaction to this doctrine is at the level of a 17 year old with no training in philosophy.

I became a Christian when I was 22. In the interim I had come to understand something about the consequences of atheism and evolution by chance and so was perhaps moving towards a kind of pantheism. Then through a series of events I met someone who was very strong in evangelism and we had a long talk. I felt I was open minded about the subject and looking back on it I probably was because God was working on me so that I could "hear" the message. From a subjective viewpoint for me it was just a matter of curiosity, of wanting to know what this particular person had to say. As the conversation progressed I raised the issue of predestination. He didn't deny the doctrine, nor did he try to explain it. He simply emphasized the fact that I could choose to accept Christ now, and if I didn't, God would not revoke the promise and I could choose to accept Him tomorrow. Through much back and forth with him I finally understood the concept of sin and guilt and I KNEW without doubt that I was guilty and I KNEW without doubt that Christ is the answer. Later that night was when I became a Christian.

This was 30 years ago. Virtually from the day I converted I've been struggling with this doctrine of predestination. Not every day, but over the years many, many long hours. It's very, very tough but I've never questioned the truth of the doctrine, my own guilt and the love and grace of God.

Though the Bible does not give a complete explanation so that we can penetrate the logic it does consistently reaffirm the truth that God is sovereign and man is responsible. And it continually emphasizes the importance of faith. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". "Today, if you hear His voice...".

Predestination is salvation from God's perspective. He controls everything that happens in His universe. But He does so in a way that does not violate the will and responsibility of the creature. How this is possible is the mystery. And it's not the only one in the Bible.

You don't have to believe or understand the doctrine to be saved. You only have to entrust your soul to God, to accept what He has graciously provided. And this you MUST do. Predestination will not save you. "For by grace you have been saved through faith".

#55 09-02-2005, 08:18 PM

Thanks for the honest reply.

As for myself, I don't try to bend the scripture to my interpretation. I consider the entire Bible to be a work of fiction. I view it probably in the exact same light as you view every organized religion except for Christianity (and the Christianity-related ones.) So I probably have the exact same belief as you about every other organized religion. We both believe that they were made up by humans for various reasons. We only really differ on just one.

#56 09-02-2005, 08:22 PM

While I was thanking Spaminator101, you posted your very honest reply. Thank you for that as well. I enjoyed learning about your religious journey.

spaminator101 · #57 09-02-2005, 08:48 PM

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We both believe that they were made up by humans for various reasons. We only really differ on just one.

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Yes, your probably right.

David Sklansky · #58 09-03-2005, 01:18 AM

"You don't have to believe or understand the doctrine (of predestination -my words) to be saved."

Then why not assume the opposite? Its a freeroll.

NotReady · #59 09-03-2005, 01:23 AM

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Then why not assume the opposite? Its a freeroll

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Assume what? That predestination isn't true? I think there are many Christians who have some Biblical doctrines wrong, no doubt including me. But it would be arrogant to assume this when the Bible clearly teaches it. Make a thorough study of the subject then if you still reject it but truly trust Christ, you will be saved.

udontknowmickey · #60 09-03-2005, 01:23 AM

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No theologian I know of has been able to reconcile these two concepts in a way that fallen human reason can accept.

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I'm not quite in agreement here. I read all this from one person Vincent Cheung, but he quotes from Martin Luther and John Calvin rather convincingly that the position on divine sovereignty and human responsibility are not contradictory if we discard the assumption that human responsibility presupposes freedom.

Rather, responsibility presupposes divine judgement, and divine judgement presupposes God's decision to judge. Thus we are responsible because God has chosen to judge and hold us accountable. We could be perfectly free to do whatever we wanted, but if no one was going to judge what we did, then we would not be responsible. Thus human responsibility presuposes a judge, and not just any judge, but an omnipotent and omniscent judge(because if we weren't judged for everything, we would not be completely responsible and if we couldn't be punished, then we can't be judged).

In short, I don't believe there is a contradiction in Scripture at all at this point.

More reading on this, the website I linked has a pile of free books. The Systematic Theology, Commentary on Ephesians, and Author of Sin are particularly relevent.

PS NotReady I hope home is alright for you. You have my prayers.