About "Psychology of Poker" by Alan Schoonmaker

[Psy_Mike]

I just got the book Psychology of Poker by Alan N. Schoonmaker. I thought it could be a nice book to read!

I started browsing through it and found one section named "Don't quit your day job!". I read a few of his statements there which almost upset me. Here they are:

"If you're thinking about becoming a full-time professional, forget it. Keep your day-job because:
1) You probably won't make it.
2) There is little money and no future.
3) It's extremely unhealthy.
4) It's a dreary life.
5) It's a great second job."

The first point is basically just saying "Don't even try because I know you don't have what it takes". Yep! That's the kind of spirit we need to keep the world evolving isn't it? That's the new type of thinking we need in todays society! Err...

The second point he makes he explains that the pros don't make much money, only about $20 an hour or so. Which you can get from any other job.

The third point is based on the assumption that everyone who plays is sitting at lousy chars which kills your back and that you sit around in awefull smokey small rooms without lighting.

The fourth point is based on the fact that you won't be able to handle the stress of not having a set income for the month. But the ones I know who play poker for a living are some of the most unstressed people I know of. It simply comes down to money management. Sure, if you have your months rent in your BR you're playing with it can be stressfull. But these guys have another "safety account" which holds money for about a years worth of rent and food which they don't ever use to play with. And then they have their playing BR which is where they make the money.
He also claims that the only thing you'll do when having poker as a full-time income is to play poker, eat and occasionally sleep. Sure this is true if you're incapable of seperating reality from what you do to get your income! But this is true for most things as well. Silly statement by Alan!

The fifth and last point is the one I agree with, but it doesn't mean that it can't be used as a full-time job either.

In my experience self-confidence is really a must in poker. You have to beleive in yourself and your judgement, and you have to beleive you can make it to the top if you take the game seriously enough. Then I don't want someone who is supposed to be a master of psychology telling me I'll never make it, even though the schmuck have never ever even seen a glimpse of me in the corner of his eye (most likely).

I just think he sounds like someone who has no sense of money management, started playing poker and built up his dreams of the big money, got addicted, couldn't handle the stress, and in the end lost all his money due to his horrible money management. Then he jumps off his poker career and rights a book instead.

Anyone else have any experience in this? It's a 2+2 publishing, so don't kick me around too much...

[Rob-L]

I think you need to take it in the context of the time it was written.

I think at the time many of his points were more true than they are presently. Especially the un-healthy comment. Now there are non-smoking rooms and better chairs but not always.

In general though, I think he was just trying to make a point to think about what you are getting yourself into and that it may not be what you imagined it to be. I think this is an extremely valid point today. A lot of people see the pros on TV and think the life is great. What they don't know is a lot of these guys really had a rough time getting to where they are now, and those rough times are not for the faint-hearted.

It's amazing the mis-conceptions people get from TV. CSI is a classic case. Enrollment in forensic science is up at universities and colleges just from it's popularity on TV. All these people think they'll be working in these cool labs and that is just not the case.

No one should crap on your dreams, but it's good to get warnings to consider all the outcomes, possibilities and pitfalls. Too few make these considerations.

[Psy_Mike]

Aye that's very true. However for a psychologist I think he should have re-phrased it to avoid pooping on peoples shoes. It seems that that a lot of the book is written to players who already know the game and are playing good poker, but want to reach into something different than strategies for a while.

Then all of a sudden it feels that this last section was aimed to the complete beginner who just jumped off his couch after watching WPT on TV and saying to himself "I'm going pro!".

[Psy_Mike]

I should note that from what I've heard it's an awesome book and a fun read. So don't get me wrong on that one. I'm still giving the book a fair shot and I'm not going to have any biased views on it, just because that particular section bugged me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[wegs the wegs]

I haven't read the book (it's being shipped from Pokerstars as we speak) but I think the section might fit the majority of the readers out there. Granted, some players can turn pro and be very successful... never regret their decision and lead a happy life.

But those are a select few. The majority of people that want to turn pro probably shouldn't. They do it for the wrong reasons, like for the fame and glory of the WPT or for a "get rich quick" scheme. Or they are simply lazy and hate their 9-5 career. Think of all the college students who want to quit school because they made 15k at the small stakes tables this past year. Most people shouldn't.

It's the same reason why basketball players growing up just assume that they will make it big in the NBA like Kobe or Lebron. I mean the six underclassmen from the SEC went undrafted... pretty much screwing themselves and their colleges because they went for the glory and fell short.
And think of all the girls that make the trip to Hollywood expecting to hit it big to end up just waiting tables, or worse, becoming the next victim of some online porn site.

I'm not saying don't give up on your dreams, but most players out there dreaming big would be much better off not becoming a professional. I'm sure Schoonmaker had this in mind when he wrote this section. I'm also sure that it doesn't stick to many people, most probably has the same mindset that you do about his advice.

[Psy_Mike]

I'm just totally against the idea of his advice. You get nothing without risk. I live in Sweden, and to be able to make any sort of money with our huge taxes you NEED to take risks. I'm starting up a company at the moment and it's taking a lot of time. I'm not getting any income from it yet, but it COULD yeild me a huge payroll if it works out well. It may fall flat as well and I'll have to use the escape hatch.

Of course I could sit down and take an ordinary job and do it the safe way. But then I'll be stuck with a salary that isn't a fraction of what I could be making if I took some risks.

Should his advice be made to people wishing to start companies as well? Most people don't make it to create a huge corporation. Most people who go that way don't drive around in Ferraris and Porches all day long. It's a very select few. But for these select few to exist we need our dreams. Dreams build the future and our society. So don't poop on them!

[pastabatman]

I don't think calling it as you see it is 'pooping on your shoes'. I certainly wouldn't want a rosy 'YOU CAN DO IT!' motivational message from such a book - I want reality. The author is just giving you his view of reality. I happen to think he's close to the mark, but that's just my opinion.

[Psy_Mike]

While I agree that there is no sense is praising "YOU CAN DO IT!", there is also something in between the extremes. He shouldn't be saying "YOU CAN DO IT!", but nor should he be saying "YOU CAN'T DO IT!". Who the heck is he to say? Just bugs me out that he has that approach to risky choices in life.

And it's just silly to claim that the top pros make $20 an hour and that there is no money to be made in poker.

But for the ones not willing to give up a lot of time and for those who don't want to devote a lot of time to poker, analysis of poker and studies will sure have a tough time reaching anywhere. But as I stated before this goes for everything in life.

There are a few kinds of people. The ones who follow the safe path and get a lower salary. And the ones who risk a lot to get a bigger salary. Both of these are needed for a society to work. And I'm simply one of those chaps who won't give up on something potentially great due to there being a risk of not acheiving it.

[PJS]

Hi Psy_Mike. If you haven't read them already, I suggest having a look at Dr. Al's recent articles in the magazine forum. They are titled "Don't Take Poker Too Seriously". They are 2 parts. Part 1 in particular may help you understand his thoughts on this.

There is also a thread in the psychology forum by "Revots" if you want further discussion.

Ed millers recent articles titled "Going Pro" are also well worth a read.

Regards,
PJS

[Al Schoonmaker]

Thank you for starting a fascinating thread. Since I don't want to interfere with it, I won't say much now.

I agree with the people who said that the situation has changed. I have made that point on the psychology forum more than once, and Ed Miller and I recently agreed that my next article will be "Should you quit your day job?" It will update that appendix to "The Psychology of Poker."

I did find one point surprising. You wrote: "I just think he sounds like someone who has no sense of money management, started playing poker and built up his dreams of the big money, got addicted, couldn't handle the stress, and in the end lost all his money due to his horrible money management. Then he jumps off his poker career and rights a book instead."

If you look on page xi, "About Alan Schoonmaker," you will note that it says I have been a professor and researcher and have authored a number of books on industrial psychology. Various people on our forums know that I owned and operated an international consulting company and worked in 28 countries for the world's largest corporations. The annual sales of my clients exceed one trillion dollars. I most definitely have never even tried to be a poker pro, nor have I ever come close to losing any significant money. I have no idea why you felt a need to make such an absurd statement.

I urge you and other wannabe pros to read Ed Miller's seris on turning pro and my next article.

Regards,

Al