O8 PF Q

[partygirluk]

2 limps, 1 fold to me.

I have AKs 72o

[Slim Pickens]

Call. Three-card hands are highly flop-dependent. With one nut straight and one nut flush draw, plus the bare nut low draw, you want to see a flop before deciding the value of this hand.

Slim

[johnnybeef]

this is an obvious call: you have a top notch hand that you want a lot of people in the pot for.

[Moneyline]

To paraphrase Foucault... sometimes it's not that you have the wrong answer, but rather that you have asked the wrong question.

You have a very strong hand, but exactly how strong it is and how you should play it depends on a lot of factors. In a tight game you should generally call with this hand. On the button or in the blinds you can raise it up, but don't raise it up every time... and the better the other players in the pot, the less inclined you should be to raise. With tight players in the pot who play well, I normally wouldn't want to raise this from the blinds.

In a loose game you generally want to call in early position, and raise in late position. If you call and it is raised behind you, you'll usually want to reraise.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
To paraphrase Foucault... sometimes it's not that you have the wrong answer, but rather that you have asked the wrong question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I left that little french double-talker behind when I finished my English degree. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Per question: obvious call. I wouldn't raise. There have been many recent threads on PF raising in limit O8 that explore this concept more fully. It's very player dependent but I wan't customers on what could be a bare low draw.

[Moneyline]

[ QUOTE ]
Per question: obvious call. I wouldn't raise. There have been many recent threads on PF raising in limit O8 that explore this concept more fully. It's very player dependent but I wan't customers on what could be a bare low draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read those recent threads, and they do not support your conclusion. There are many situations where this hand can be raised. One fairly obvious example is in a game where a number of players are routinely playing junk hands for 2 bets. I agree that hands like the one described should usually be limped with, but never raising a hand this powerful is a mistake IMHO.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
There are many situations where this hand can be raised. One fairly obvious example is in a game where a number of players are routinely playing junk hands for 2 bets. I agree that hands like the one described should usually be limped with, but never raising a hand this powerful is a mistake IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think in your example, which may or may not coincide with the situation in partgirl's question, the problem is (as we've discussed before) that you basically telegraph that you have A2xx and probably high qualities as well. So when the flop comes scary, how much action do you think you are going to get, exactly, on the turn and river when the limits double? And from what kind of hands? Probably only the ones that can quarter your low and/or beat you. I almost always opt for concealment pre-flop unless short-handed or I'm just in a LAG kind of mood. So you raise PF and get two more small bets out of the limpers: then what? In most cases you end up missing BB's on the 4th and 5th street that you may have otherwise extracted.

There is much disagreement about this however. I didn't say that the threads "support my conclusion" necessarily. This is just my perspective. I'm not alone on this one either, just check out the poll!

Plus, I don't think this is that powerful of hand. The 7 is basically useless. When the two gets counterfited that 7 is going to be about as useful as a porno mag to a blind man.

[Moneyline]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem (with raising) is (as we've discussed before) that you basically telegraph that you have A2xx and probably high qualities as well. So when the flop comes scary, how much action do you think you are going to get, exactly on the turn and river when the limits double?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of action. Tons of it. The type of player who is going to call two bets cold with rags pre-flop isn't going to turn around and become a rock once the flop comes down.

[ QUOTE ]
And from what kind of hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands that you absolutely crush. We're not talking about tight players here. We're not even talking about somewhat loose players. We're talking about very loose players who take all sorts of crap holdings to the river. You are costing yourself a lot of money by not raising in these situations when you have way the best of it and will be called.

I suggest you take a look at this article: http://www.playwinningpoker.com/articles/04/15.html

[ QUOTE ]
There is much disagreement about this however. I didn't say that the threads "support my conclusion" necessarily. This is just my perspective. I'm not alone on this one either, just check out the poll!


[/ QUOTE ]

The point of my original response was that the poll is not a good question. Most of the time you'll want to call, but to say that you should always call or always raise is not what I consider to be a good approach to this, or any other 08 hand. You must consider your position, your opponents, and your image before making a judgement on how to play a hand.

[partygirluk]

This was in a $.02/.04 game. I raised because I figured people would call with all sorts, and my hand had a significant pot equity advantage. However, I hope to move up in limits, so am interested in the general principles too.

One poster advocated calling, as raising gives away my hand. Would he thus argue that one should never raise preflop?

What about with a hand like AKs AKs or KJs QTs or AJs ATs? If these hands hit the flop, then there likely won't be a low available, and thus you have the possibility of a scoop, plus this adds variety to your PF raising hands.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
When the two gets counterfited that 7 is going to be about as useful as a porno mag to a blind man.


[/ QUOTE ]

that is the funniest thing i have read this month!!!!

there are 7 reasons to raise ala TOP:

1. add $ to the pot
2. drive out opponents with better hands
3. bluff or semi bluff
4. free card
5. gain info
6. drive out worse hands when your own hand may be second best
7. drive out better hands when a come hand bets

reasons 6 & 7 do not apply to preflop play in omaha. #4 can only be done in late position (and is pretty ineffective preflop). #5 only works in a raised pot preflop (and is a terrible play). #3 only works when it is down to you and the blinds in lp (which by the way is not effective in low limit games as your opponents generally call anything when in the blinds). as for #2: in a hand that will likely only win half of the pot, driving out opponents (where your profit comes from) is incorrect. #1: adding money to the pot will likely drive people out.

that being said, folding is not an option with this hand therefor the correct answer is call. In omaha 8/b (especially at the lower limits) the only reason you want to raise preflop is #1 and that only works when many people have limped or you feel that many people will call a raise cold.

hope this helps:
Johnny